aerodynamics

[landracing]

Yes Mike thank you for that post, it is very nice of you always to be so open about your project. If there is anything that I have learned from you is that you have no secrets about your project. And you are open to what, why and when you have done everything on your project. When talking to you I find that you took the simplist approach to everything, make it simple is what you keep saying.

Thanks
Jon

[Sumner]

Hawk:

When I started the project a couple of years ago I knew almost nothing about aerodynamic theory (and still don?t).  My approach was fairly simple, don?t be influenced.........................the best.  I guess my point is that common sense, practical knowledge and luck can often trump theory or commonly accepted principals.  As Ken says ?I would rather be lucky than good any day?.

Ack thanks for sharing Ken's and your thoughts.  That pretty much sums up what I'm trying to do with the body on my lakester.  The only picture I have (have been able to find) of your liner with the body on is the one with this post.  I would sure like to see some frontal, rear, top, and/or side pictures.  Are there any posted on the Internet?  If not and you would like to share those with us I would be glad to post them on my site or you could post them here.  I was so busy with Hooley and his Stude 2 years ago that I missed seeing you on the salt and you weren't there this year.

If there are any pictures of your liner, with or without the body on somewhere on the I-net could you please post an address.  BTW the liner looks great   .

Thanks,

Sum

[k.h.]

Cut and paste from Tony Foale, motorcycle designer article circa 1997
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Aerodynamics/AERO.htm

CONCLUSIONS:  Aerodynamic design of motorcycles is more than just a matter of producing a low drag, low lift body with a C of P. behind the C of G. Stability is harder to achieve with well streamlined low drag bodies, this is due both to the greater side area present with such fairings and to more efficient production of "sideways lift" due to the angle between the airflow direction and the direction of travel. So ideally we want a combination of sometimes conflicting requirements:------ Minimal drag for performance. Low frontal C of P. to reduce drag induced weight transfer. Low and rearward side C of P. to reduce the unbalancing moments, and give directional stability. A shape and value of side area that minimises the side force produced. A high and forward C of G. combined with a large weight to minimise the effect of whatever side forces are generated.

If any of you out there were thinking of designing your own bodywork, don't let this put you off. Often the amateur with limited resources shows up the large companies, who do not always get it right, even with their wind tunnels. Just look at Ford's attempt with the Sierra (European model only), initially there were stability problems until they fitted spoilers to the rear quarter lights. In the bike world, back in 1981 a road test on BMW's Futuro fully faired concept bike, showed it to be very bad in this area too. _

[4janey2]

I sure hope that this all works, because my head hurts.

[1212FBGS]

the biggest reduction in drag comes from enclosing the front turbine er I mean WHEEL. Have ya ever seen flow visualization of a spinning mass? It's pretty ugly. try all ya want with band aids like slippery looking body coverings the best you'll get is 5 to 7%. look at the records, compared an open bike to a ps record, do the math, it's all about 5 to 7%. The smaller ya make your bodywork the less affect it will have on possibly stabilizing or reattaching the turbulent wake made from the front wheel. until they allow us to run dustbins again its gonna be pretty hard to lower CD. So think all ya want 'bout making your bodywork smaller and smoother in a misguided attempt to lower cd. but history and the records show it wont make all that big of a deal. Kawasaki was on the right track when they put those little wing-lets on the side of their bikes. those were to stop the wash from creeping up the side of the bike. They were just a little too small, heck who would buy a bike with big stupid looking wings on the side of their bike? Now Hawk don't run out and put big wings on your bike! do not put any aerodynamic loading devise on an inherently unstable vehicle. Unless you want us to see a pretty spectacular crash. Like my 93 speed-week crash.

[John Noonan]

Pics removed

J

[Sumner]

Great pictures John   .  Thanks!!! Do you plan on running Speed Week next year?

Can I ask some questions/make some observations and feel free not to comment if there is something you would just as soon not be made public.

Looks like both motors exhaust to one turbo?  Where does the water for the intercooler come from?  Is the tank at the very front of the liner for cooling and/or intercooler?  Is the tank under the chutes gas?

It looks like the front motor drives an intermediate jackshaft that connects to the rear jackshaft via a chain on the right side of the car?  Then the rear jackshaft by the swingarm is also driven by the back motor and that jackshaft drives both sides of the rear tire/wheel?

The workmanship is fantastic       .

I hate to comment on someone else's car/bike, but I would really like to see the area by your helmet more closed in to stop lateral movement of your head.  Also maybe a bumper at the front of the helmet to stop forward movement.  I guess Tom Burkland has made a big influence on me in this area.

He just sent me the following links that I would like to share:

http://www.joieofseating.net/2005_stories/randy_reacts1.html

and

http://www.joieofseating.net/seats.html

The second one with the seat info wouldn't apply to you, but we are looking at options to confine Hooley's upper body and head area in his Stude and that page, especially the part at the bottom "SAFER SYSTEM" might be good to study for some of the car guys.

I think Randy Lajoie sums it up with the following statement:

Being involved with NASCAR?s Tech Center (Concord, NC); sitting in on their crash tests and receiving the data from the black boxes onboard NASCAR Trucks, Busch and Cup cars has been helpful to all of us and I have learned plenty.  The old saying, ?You have to move inside a racecar (when you get hit),? well, let?s just say that is BS.  No points loss here I hope.  The industry has never hurt a driver that did not move.
 

Well anyway thanks for the pictures and I want a picture of it going 350 mph or more next year.

c ya, Sum

[John Noonan]

Thanks for the compliments, I will answer a few of the questions and see if Mike wants to answer any others.

1.  Yes
2. Yes
3. A tank with ice under the rider
4. Cooling
5. No tank under chutes, the Black "tank" is the fuel tank.
6. Above that is the Intercooler.

That first article was very nice and had great information thank you, the liner was inspected at Speedweek (and passed) and also by the FIM stewards while we were at the Bub's event last month, the chassis I am sure is stronger than most if not all other liners (bikes) as Mike is first concerned with safety, simplicity and then speed.

I would rather ride  the streamliner (with regards to safety) than the open bike at 260 with nothing more than leathers, boots and a helmet.

Pic removed..

[Utahfab]

I'd like to see John Noonan's photos but from here it just says "Photos removed".  How do I see them?

Thanks

[1212FBGS]

To see Noonans pix you need a really big monitor. Like a 19" or 20"  cuz his head won't fit into a 17" monitor anymore. Little A is pretty good with shrinkin heads but is reluctant to practice his voodoo on Noonan as yet
kent

[John Noonan]

To see Noonans pix you need a really big monitor. Like a 19" or 20"  cuz his head won't fit into a 17" monitor anymore. Little A is pretty good with shrinkin heads but is reluctant to practice his voodoo on Noonan as yet
kent

Yeah, no need to look at that swoopy bodywork either...

[1212FBGS]

cool I just passed Noonan for points with that last post. Now if I can only gain speed to catch Doland.
kent

[John Noonan]

cool I just passed Noonan for points with that last post. Now if I can only gain speed to catch Doland.
kent

Yeah, now I have more points than (insert name here) not about points, about good info...

PS. I now have more points...again.

J

[John Noonan]

I'd like to see John Noonan's photos but from here it just says "Photos removed".  How do I see them?

Thanks

Sorry, some people in small tribes still have dial up at 2600 baud rate and cannot clock in to view the future..

[1212FBGS]

Stop that and go to bed! I hear Michelle calling!