Author Topic: Wind Speed  (Read 6855 times)

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Offline stay`tee

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Wind Speed
« on: February 03, 2010, 05:43:59 AM »
I am in the process of building a small wind tunnel,,, not to fancy, just one to play and experiment with, using various shapes and dicast cars and motorcycles to try and gain a little knowledge towards whats happening with the wind,, :-)
My question is, "do you scale the actual wind speed in the tunnel down to match the scale of the model that you are testing",,,for example,, if i have a 1/8 scaled motorcycle in there, do i have the wind speed at 25mph (200/8=25) to replicate 200mph :?
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Offline wolbrink471

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 08:47:58 AM »
Stay

I think it is the other way round.......if the scale is 1/4 size then the wind needs to 4 times the intended test speed.

Check out 'reynolds number'

Mark

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Offline bbarn

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2010, 10:27:20 AM »
http://www.amazon.com/Race-Car-Aerodynamics-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837601428

Check out the book Race Car Aerodynamics, chapter 3 of the book describes wind tunnel testing. Also, as with the previous comment, learn about Reynolds numbers before you get too deep into building the tunnel.

The Reynolds number http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_number is important when scaling the tunnel for testing. In very, very abstract terms, Re represents the interface between the object and the medium (air). Since you are dealing with a scale model, you will not have the same surface area of the actual vehicle and you will need to adjust the wind speed accordingly. Using the Re number, you can scale the car down and then scale the air up (increase velocity) to better represent what will happen at full speed. You can also use a different medium to test in (water, argon, helium...), but you need to first understand what the Re number is before you can make your velocity calculations.

You are on the right track, you will be increasing the speed of the wind to simulate reality.
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Offline robfrey

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2010, 10:45:06 AM »
I don't quite understand. Before I take the time to educate myself on this, can someone at least fill me in on the basics.
If I build a 1/12 scale model of our liner, do I need to actually go faster than the full scale speed to see if it is stable or is it just not linear. We ran 1/10 scale dirt oval cars for years and I can not even begin to tell you how important the body was and we were only operating at 40 mph max. The body was may more important than it was on real cars (dirt late model).
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Offline bbarn

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 10:50:15 AM »
Here is a quick read giving the basics. (Source: U.S. Centennial Commission on Flight)


Reynolds number is used to determine whether a flow will be laminar or turbulent. If Re is high (>2100), inertial forces dominate viscous forces and the flow is turbulent; if Re number is low (<1100), viscous forces dominate and the flow is laminar. It is named after the British physicist and engineer Osborne Reynolds (1842-1912), of the University of Manchester, who discovered it in 1883.

Reynolds number is important in wind tunnel experiments since it relates to the aerodynamic properties of lifting surfaces, such as airfoils, when extrapolating from small wind tunnel test models to full-size wings. Reynolds discovered that, if the same atmospheric pressure were used for experiments with wind tunnel models as a full-size aircraft would encounter under actual conditions, the experimental results would be invalid.

In order for results obtained with a scale model in wind tunnel experiments to be valid, the Reynolds number needs to be the same under wind tunnel conditions and in regular atmospheric conditions. The way to ensure this is to increase the air density inside the tunnel by the same proportion as the model is smaller than the full-size aircraft. In practical terms, if a model is 1/10 the size of a full-size aircraft, then the air density (the number of atmospheres) inside the tunnel must be increased by a factor of 10 to get wind tunnel results that are valid in regular atmospheric conditions with a full-size aircraft.

Reynolds discovered the ratio that has since been called the Reynolds number when examining fluid flow characteristics – how a liquid flows in a pipe or how air flows across an aircraft wing. He demonstrated that the motion of a fluid may be either laminar (in smooth layers) or turbulent, and that the change from a laminar flow to a turbulent flow can happen suddenly. The transition from a smooth laminar flow to a turbulent flow always occurred when the ratio ρVD/μ was the same (ρ = density of the fluid, V = velocity, D = pipe diameter, μ = fluid viscosity. The variable that can be adjusted inside a wind tunnel is ρ – its density, and it would be adjusted by the same proportion as the model is smaller than the actual aircraft: a 1/10th model would produce valid results if the atmospheric pressure in the wind tunnel were increased by a factor of 10.

In actual subsonic flight, airfoils with low Reynolds number flows are laminar and those with high Reynolds number flows are mostly turbulent, keeping in mind that the Reynolds number is the ratio between density, velocity, diameter, and viscosity (For an airfoil in flight rather than in a wind tunnel, D would be the distance between the leading and trailing edge called the chord length along a flow.)
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Offline interested bystander

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 11:13:00 AM »
A statement that clarifies Reynolds Number to me is :

A bumble bee's flying environment would be, to us, MOLASSES.
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Offline robfrey

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 01:13:07 PM »
Using a 1/12th scale model, how do I get 12bar of atmosphere?
What scale would we have to be to use water?
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Offline bbarn

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 01:39:34 PM »
Oh sure, I have to go find the info, and then you want me to do the math too! :-o

I'll put a spread sheet together with some info on it like the wing lift calculator I did.

I also thought of building a closed system and pressurizing it, the only thing is that we need to filter out the smoke or whatever we use for visualization. If you watch the Mythbuster's golf ball episode, they use a water based flow at I believe 1 inch per second if I remember correctly. Which makes sense because water is far more dense than air, therefor the velocities would need to be lower for modeling purposes.

There is a Re formula that I believe can be used to determine either the medium density adjustment, pressure adjustment or velocity adjustment. I don't know yet which is the most accurate variable to adjust, perhaps there be someone afoot here that will save me some reading.
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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2010, 05:53:12 PM »
The primary problem with understanding Reynolds numbers is the difficulty humans have with dimensionless numbers.

We like numbers with feet, psi, dollars attached to them. Dimensions.

We can't relate to dimensionless numbers like this. If you can't figure out Reynolds numbers then building your own wind tunnel is way out of your league.

You have figured it out? Ok.
How to build your own wind tunnel. From NASA.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/WindTunnel/build.html
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Offline wolbrink471

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2010, 07:45:55 PM »
If you can't figure out Reynolds numbers then building your own wind tunnel is way out of your league.

sheesh, I thought the hard part was building accurate enough scale models..........
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Offline bbarn

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2010, 08:09:08 PM »
Dean is right, you have to be able to get your head around the concept of dimensionless measurements numbers. Learning how to design wings and calculate their lift/drag from dimensionless foil data was hard. Once you get your head around it is not so scary!

I suggest that if you are going to dig into it, get some duct tape an wrap it around your head. It won't prevent your head from exploding, but it will keep the pieces together and make cleanup much easier.  :-D

oh, and an accurate scale model is a must! Without it, you might as well just pretend you built a wind tunnel and go with what your gut tells you...sometimes, ignorance is bliss!
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Offline johnneilson

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2010, 10:05:41 PM »
There is a reason that wind tunnels are built for full size testing.
I remember visiting the Swift tunnel and thinking how much easier it would be to have a lower ceiling.
What I wasn't thinking about was the height of the car and the area it took away from the chamber.

All good discussion, carry on, J
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Offline stay`tee

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2010, 05:26:09 AM »
bbarn, with all due respect, go read my original post on why i am building this tunnel :roll:,, it is nothing fancy, just a tunnel that i can set a block of wood, a model car, motorcycle in, and then visualise what happens when i apply the smoke wand to the various shapes, surfaces,,,, a person can study all the text books ever written :|, nothing but nothing, comes close to gaining knowledge than actually witnessing something happen.
Ummmm,,, i purchased the book "Race Car Aerodynamics" 12 years ago, read it and have refered back to it many times,,, it is a very good book, but in all honesty it gives me a headache :-).
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Offline bbarn

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2010, 10:31:00 AM »
stay'tee,

I was only referring to getting accurate data from WT testing, I would never squash someone's idea about wanting to learn something in general terms.

You may find this interesting, it is only 2-D simulation and it is not considered a highly accurate modeling tool, but it does give good visualizations. Check the More Info page at the top, the author states "Flow Illustrator is optimized for speed and robustness, with accuracy being traded in. Treat the movies as artist impressions. The artist is you."

You can choose pre-defined shapes or you can make your own bitmap image and load it for viewing. Read the More Info tab, it will describe how to make the bitmap and upload it. The process is pretty straight forward and only takes a minute or two generate the movie.

http://chernyshenko.sesnet.soton.ac.uk/FlowIllustrator.aspx

Here is one of our designs that I ran through it:
http://s889.photobucket.com/albums/ac92/bbarnhart_photos/Streamliner/Version2/2D%20Flows/?action=view&current=Top_NoWing.flv

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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Wind Speed
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2010, 10:42:15 AM »
SOooooo what did you see you liked and what are your concerns!!!!!!!
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