Production Supercharged rule question

[Cajun Kid]

John,,, I have noticed it !!!

Charles

[Johntsi]

HAH sent you a email to see if we are of the same thinking, though there is not a single rule written in the rulebook saying anything about it specifically  .

BTW if a moderator reads this this thread would likely be better suited to be moved to the ECTA rules section instead of general chat.  I am sure I will have more questions about the class and other will benefit from your feedback and would find it easier in that section.

And as far as paperwork showing the car as produced?  You just want pictures of it stock?  Worst case I can bring up a whole stock talon worse comes to worst.  The rules really don't say much about anything under the hood appearance wise other than radiator, am I at least correct in that aspect?

[LSR Mike]

John, Plan on running in April no matter what... you can always go Time Only. and I don't think you'll have any trouble with tech either, just Richien when you take his records....

And remember, Tech is for Safety equipment only, not Class conformance, that is strictly up to the competitor... The only time anybody cares about class conformance is when a record is broken, and it's usually the guy whose record you broke doing the closest scrutiny (they get to protest), and I think there has only been one protest ever filed in the ECTA.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Mike, I'll add a bit of a caveat to the comment about tech being for safety only:

Yes -- that's what Tech does.  But -- many times I'll see something that will make a vehicle ineligible for a declared class - while I'm doing the safety inspection.  I'll point out to the racer that he doesn't qualify for that class because of such-and-such, and suggest that he consider changing either the class -- or the item that's not right.

I inspect bikes, though -- maybe the car inspectors do it differently.

[Cajun Kid]

I noticed the car was not Satin Black with Red and White lettering !!!!  Can I protest ??   

Nice build,,,Hope you make it for April.... I am at best 50/50 to make it with my new build. 

Charles

[White Monster]

As far as paperwork showing the car as produced?  You just want pictures of it stock?  Worst case I can bring up a whole stock talon worse comes to worst.

The rules really don't say much about anything under the hood appearance wise other than radiator, am I at least correct in that aspect?

John, a couple of things regarding your questions above.

Firstly, the best documentation you can have available for proof of the vehicle is a Manufacturers brochure, Factory Service Manuals or other "official" documents for the year of your vehicle.  Also, I'm not sure towing down another vehicle as an example of stock is considered "documentation".

Secondly, you are not entirely correct about the rulebook not saying much about anything under the hood appearance wise other than radiator.  It does talk about aftermarket headers being allowed and is pretty specific about turbo's and superchargers.

Also, I know Mike is assisting you with the build and therefore you should have a copy of the 2009 ECTA Rulebook available to you, but just in case this is an incorrect assumption on my part, please find below the excerpts that are pertinent to the class you want to run in.

- WM -

5.E PRODUCTION CATEGORY
Starting on Jan. 01, 2010 al entrants running in Production classes must have pictures of the car as produced with their Log Book for certification purposes.

This category is intended to represent typical transportation vehicles, which may be purchased from ANY automobile dealer. A production rate of at least 500 vehicles of the same model and available from any dealer's inventory for sale to the general public is considered to meet the requirement of a production automobile. In keeping with this intent, the cars are aerodynamically "stone stock" with no body parts allowed which were not parts of the manufacturer's production for the series of the vehicle involved.

The engine used must have been available in the model of vehicle used as purchased from ANY automobile dealer. Modified body, body panels, spoilers, air dams, etc. intended for and as accepted or sanctioned by NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, etc. are not permitted for use in this category unless specifically allowed. A manufacturer's part number does not necessarily imply that a part is an original, factory installed body part. Both exterior and interior body panels are considered to be part of a production vehicle and must be mounted in their original relationship to each other.

Racing seats shall be used per Section 3.D.1. The original side panel upholstery, both front and rear, must remain or be replaced with an aluminum equivalent. A stock or full width dashboard is mandatory. A fabricated, non-flammable equivalent is acceptable. Carpet, sound deadening material, headliner, minor chrome trim and emblems may be removed.

A different displacement size of the same design engine may be used provided it does not constitute an engine swap as defined in Section 4.N. Any transmission, non-quick change rear end, and an on-board starter capable of starting the engine shall be used so long as the original running gear design is retained.

Vehicles originally produced as a front wheel drive chassis and converted to rear wheel or four-wheel drive chassis are NOT eligible for competition in the Production Category. Choices camshafts, induction and ignition are unlimited. Cylinder heads are limited to original r of valves and port configuration.

Vehicles in this category that exceed 200 MPH, or if the existing record is over 200 MPH, have roof rails, see Section 4.X

PRODUCTION RECORDS ARE SUBJECTTO APPROVAL AND WILL BE CERTIFIED ONLY AFTER COMPARISON WITH THE MANUFACTURER'S SPECIFICATIONS FOR THE MODEL ENTERED. THE ENTRANT IS REQUIRED TO PROVIDE SUITABLE DOCUMENTATION. El Caminos and Rancheros meeting the requirements within this category will compete in the appropriate class.

XX/PRO class is limited to cylinder head port configuration as originally designed. This applies to the XXF and XXO engine classes.
All closed vehicles that would qualify as a V4 or V4F Production coupe or sedan will compete in the V4 or V4F Gas Coupe class.

Vehicles using a hybrid power source, such as a gasoline/ battery pack, will compete in the equivalent cubic inch class of the gasoline engine. The battery pack MUST be the stock unit as sold with the vehicle model used. The battery pack will be sealed to the race vehicle to ensure that it cannot be swapped. No off board charging of the battery packs will be allowed. If the vehicle is removed from the race meet, all previous runs will be forfeited. OEM throttle body control MUST be used. The entrant must provide the documentation to ensure that production units are used.

5.E.1 Production Coupe And Sedan - /PRO
American coupes and sedans 1928 to current year, foreign coupes and sedans 1949 to current year, or 1928-1981 American coupes and sedans that do not meet the requirements for Classic Category.

The vehicle will be unaltered in height, width or contour, with all stock panels mounted in the original relationship to each other. This category does not include cars properly classified as Sports or GT. A production rate of at least 500 vehicles of the same model for sale to the general public is considered to meet the requirement of a production automobile. The entrant must provide the documentation to ensure that production requirements are met.

The following items shall be retained in the stock location and of the same year and manufacture as the body: frame, floor pan, fenders, hood, grille, drip rails (must not be filled), windows, door handles, window trim, dashboard, headlights (high and low beam), tail lights, parking lights, stop lights, radiator, front and rear bumpers and horn. Decals are not acceptable as meeting the head and tail light requirements. The stock gas tank must be fitted, but need not be used.

The following body and chassis modifications may be made: headers, hood scoop (Section 4.R), wheel openings may be radiused for tire clearance. Passenger and rear seat may be removed. Air dams and air spoilers identical to factory optional equipment, (OEM) for the body in question may be added.

The following are NOT permitted: Streamlining, (Section 4.CC and subsections), Air Ducts (Section 4.A), Air Vents (Section 4.C), Chopping (Section 4.1), Channeling (Section 4.1.1). Rules for these classes will be strictly enforced to ensure that cars entered are typical of street machines that may be purchased from ANY automobile dealer.
Coupes and sedans produced from 1949 to the current model year, and not meeting the criteria of the Classic Category, must compete in the Modified Category classes.

Engine classes allowed are: AA, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, XF, XO, XXF & XXO

5.E.2 Production-Supercharged -/PS
This class is intended for American and foreign coupes and sedans that meet the requirement of the Production Coupe and Sedan Class that are equipped with factory supercharger systems. The vehicle shall be as originally equipped and configured. If the vehicle was originally equipped with one turbo charger, one turbo charger must be used. If the vehicle was originally equipped with a belt driven supercharger, a supercharger of that type must be used. Supercharged sports coupes equipped with rear jump seats, such as Mazda RX7 Turbo and Porsche 930 series, which would be considered a GT class vehicle, shall compete in the Blown GT class.

Engine classes allowed are B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I and J.

[Cajun Kid]

Well,,, that sure sums it up
 

You could always have fun in the Modified or Altered Class ?

See you in April,,, I sure can't wait to see that Rad  Ride Run the MONSTER MILE  !!!

Charles

[Rick Byrnes]

Dan,
No problem
I was just taken back though that aftermarket radiators are actually allowed.
There isn't really anything to then determine airflow thru the engine bay that is certainly one variable as to how fast a car can go.
Varying fins per inch, or rows of tubes does a small part of blocking off the radiator.
BUT, moving on

Having said everything on the earlier post
Aside from specific cant do modifications, PRODUCTION class cars are special built, probably like mine, never to run on the street again, and certainly take EVERY advantage or unfair advantage.  Lowering to the absolute max, with completely redesigned suspension systems is common.  My old car included. The only thing that limits the PRO competitor is his wallet and skills.  Just like any other class.
I'm not saying that all out cheating should be done, but make no mistake, most record setting PRO class cars are VERY modified, and push the envelope of the rules a great deal. (see one fast evo, we do agree) and I don't think you offended anyone with your comments.  I think I feel lot more strongly than you, and do voice it frequently.  I just havent done it here.
The intent of the rules may be to represent the original production car, and it should, but make no mistake these things are not STOCK CARS other than the virginal body skin. and underbody.  There have been some very nicely massaged bodies in the past.  (not mine)(honest).
As Mr White monster says documentation is most important now, but again, from my first event with the Merkur we had that stuff because my car was not produced in real high numbers. (about 5K per year as XR4Ti)   If there is another car present at the event it would be perfect.  Actually I wanted to use another Merkur as a push car, but I couldn't afford it.
I believe about 18 years ago there was a car that lost its good standing when another of the same model drove up along side, and an official noticed a significant difference in body shape.  (now thats just a story isn't it)

One last point and I'll quit jabbering and go play with my grandkids.
The really big issue with production class is the skin outside and inside, and underbody.  The engine bay can be completely empty of stuff, but the fenderwells need to be pretty much left alone.  Need to cut a hole for headers, go ahead, just don't make a 4 foot hole for a 4 into  two collector.

One of the reasons that new guys are told to get the rule book, and go to the salt and study the class of cars that they will be running is just to see what you can get away with. (so to speak)  If you had seen Stagmeyer& Eakers, or the 757 Camero, they are full of wonderful things you can do in PRO class.

Also, I guess that if you plan on only ECTA events, the one rule book is ok.  But it was and is modeled after the SCTA rule book and if there is a remote possibility you will want to go to the sale (EVER) then you really need both.

And as many have offered, write to the organizers and "get a response in writing"  and keep it with your log book.

One last thing for everyone.
It is not a disgrace to be asked to leave impound after qualifying or setting a record.
Many of us at Bonneville have had this experience, then just gone out and gone faster in the next pass.

Dont cheat, but push really really hard.


 
   

[Johntsi]

Again, thanks for all the help.  As I read those rules all I need to do is reinstall the wipers and rewire them and reinstall the horn.  The body of the car is untouched, unless you count the door ding it picked up last weekend, SOB  .  Interior is all there from carpet to headliner, just the rear seats removed for cage purposes.  Car retains all the lights and other options needed to pass NC state inspection so it can run in the true street Drag class.

I don't see rules about exhaust so am I to assume there are no exhaust requirements and I can do with it as I will? 

[LSR Mike]

Hey Slim,
Not saying an inspector may not offer their opinion and experience on what class a entrant should be in, but that's not their primary job. as Dan W. would attest. Some people are expecting to get inspected for class conformance, that doesn't happen until impound. as I found out early in my career. I still don't know where anybody sees a windshield wiper requirement, I pulled out everything on my truck, and just don't take the exhaust out thru a fender. As far as the horn, we had a OOGaAH squeeze horn on the Street Roadster I used to run...

[Seldom Seen Slim]

You cars guys (okay pickup truck guys) are a different breed -- what can I say?

When I'm inspecting bikes we will darn near never let someone go -- that is, approve his bike at inspection -- if he won't later pass in impound.  We do it as a courtesy - but are pretty firm about it.

At Bville I let the Maxton "effect" control me somewhat -- I won't argue the point, but rather make sure that the contestant knows that he's likely going to regret trying to run with whatever it is he's got -- if he gets to impound.

Back to your point --- I agree that inspection isn't the place for final "compliance" checking, but if I can save someone some grief -- I try to do so.

[Cajun Kid]

SSS,

I am with you,,, now come down here and get all this cold, snow and icy weather and take it back up with you where it all belongs.

Charles

[Rick Byrnes]

Again, thanks for all the help.  As I read those rules all I need to do is reinstall the wipers and rewire them and reinstall the horn.  The body of the car is untouched, unless you count the door ding it picked up last weekend, SOB  .  Interior is all there from carpet to headliner, just the rear seats removed for cage purposes.  Car retains all the lights and other options needed to pass NC state inspection so it can run in the true street Drag class.

I don't see rules about exhaust so am I to assume there are no exhaust requirements and I can do with it as I will? 

John, feel free to send me a direct e mail  Rick@RBMotorsports.com

[Rick Byrnes]

SSS
In the time since I've been involved (86onward) the car guys in tech don't openly pass judgement on the legality.
BUT
There is discussion about new cars and something that may be questionable and if really severe, the owner probably will be talked to.
 
The very first year for the Merk this occur ed to some extent, but everything turned out OK.
Again if we don't push a little we don't have as much fun.
I made a record that year, lost it two days later, and been here ever since.

Pointedly the car guys will, but it isn't up front.  Like everything else in LSR.  When we approach a sport in a civilized manner good council can and does occur.

[Stan Back]

I've been lobbying for the car inspectors to note in the Log Book things that are blatantly in violation of the Rule Book in the class that a vehicle has been entered.  Couple of reasons for this . . .

One is to help the competitor if and when he gets to Impound from getting kicked out because of something he could have easily fixed.

Another is to aid in keeping a car from being sold as class-legal -- because it's passed inspection numerous times.

And most importantly -- at least to chicken-schit me -- is too keep a car from setting a record at a lightly-attended or late in the day meet.

Believe it or not, some competitors select running at a meet where the scrutinizing may fall to just one or two people.

So far, some inspectors do, and some do not although I believe there have been some guidelines regarding committee chairmen being involved.

So there!  (Probably got it all wrong, anyway.)

Stan Back