Production Supercharged rule question

[LSR Mike]

SCTA Rulebook, 3.U Windshield wiper blades and arms MUST be Removed! all classes..

Don't see anything about Radiators in Production category rules....

[LSR Mike]

Oh and better recheck the ECTA Rulebook, 5.H.1 Under BFSS, Nitrous is the only allowed Fuel, Alcohol and Nitromethane are NOT permitted....(bummer dude)

[Johntsi]

Car can be ran on VP Import for the fuel class so that doesn't bother me. I will look at that rule though.

The car is not being built as a land speed car its actually original intent was to drag race, it is being built to fit the rules for LSR however.  The radiator has to be of the same manufacture of the car?  I see that rule in other classes but have seen the cars at Maxton carry, afco, fluidyne, sirroco, griffen and other brands of radiator in the stock location and unless I missed something none of those companies produced those cars.  Hell the radiator in this car from the factory was not produced by Chrysler or Eagle?  The current radiator is in the stock location and stock configuration. 

Every competitive advantage? Not really.  I have not touched aero, I have put the stock tank back in the car and removed the rear pan I made for aero. We have 2 cars here that are full weight cars with stereos and are daily drivers that would fit into this class and no one would complaint about astetically. They run 9.70s in the 1/4 mile @140mph but are street cars because they don't require all the safety equipment it would require to run in this class and pass tec.  Putting in the required equipment to go over 200mph isn't gonna make any car much of a production car. 

And no I am not uspet, I would rather know now instead when I show up. I have however been racing in other forms of motorsports for sometime and people always build cars to the rules, I was unaware here if done so people would attempt to say that yes it meets the rules but it is beyond what was intended.  If that where the case call it a stock class and say no modifications allowed.

[1 fast evo 2]

I posted this in the other thread but figured it may get more attention here.

Production supercharged says you have to have wipers.  That just means linkage and motor right?  I certainly don't want the arms and blades on at the speeds I hope to be seeing. And do I need to bring the arms and blades with the car if this is the case?  Also about the radiator in that class when it says stock, it means stock location not a stock radiator right?

As far as the wipers go, you have to be able to use them but the wiper arms and blades are not supposed to be on the car(too dangerous).


I just talked to joe Timney and he says as long as it is in the stock location an aftermarket radiator is within the rules (for production).
John is not trying to gain an advantage with a radiator, it is just alot safer to run an aluminum radiator than it is to run a plastic one that has the end tanks sealed with o-rings.

[1 fast evo 2]

In answering your questions, we must once again look at the intent of the rules.
The Production Category is intended to represent typical transportation vehicles, which may be purchased from ANY automobile dealer for sale to the general public.


As far as I know it is the rules that are the guide line in any form of racing that I have ever seen and it's your prerogative to build your car however you want within the rules. If you want to go with the way the class was intended you do that, but if it's a competitive class you will get you a-s handed to you if you aren't building to the rules.If you are just running for the fun of it why get upset when someone builds a car within the rules and goes faster.
If you can't tell we aren't trying to cheat, we go out of are way to make sure we are within the rules so that no can claim that we are cheating.

Don't get mad it's just a little ol 4 cylinder, what kind of trouble could it cause.

Also, Please be aware that starting January 1, 2010, all entrants in this category must have pictures of the car as produced, with their log book for certification purposes.

Production supercharged says you have to have wipers. 
That just means linkage and motor right?

If the rules state that wipers are require, then that is exactly what it means (although in my quick reading of the Production Category rules, I did not see any mention of wipers specifically).

Also about the radiator in that class when it says stock, it means stock location not a stock radiator right?

The rules state that the radiator must be retained in the stock location and be of the same year and manufacture as the body.

Production records are subject to approval and will be certified only after comparison with the manufacturer's specifications for the model entered.  The entrant is required to provide suitable documentation.

Without trying to upset you (which is not my intent), it really appears to me that you are trying to build a Land Speed specific racecar with every competitive advantage you can manage and then try to race it against unaltered production street cars that anyone can buy at a dealership.  I just do not believe that that is going to be allowed.

[Geo]

My interpretation of the radiator rule is to keep you from having an areo advantage by running a different size.  i.e. 32 Ford roadster with a Fiesta radiator.

To understand some of the rules you have to look at all the years of cars involved and the rule eliminating the possibility of someone getting an unfair advantage.  While you may be building a 2000 something someone else may be building a 1960 something.

Keep reading the rulebook, discussing your ideas here and guidance comes.

Geo

[t russell]

For Lawson Bilhardt's t-bird to run ps-classes we had to instal the stock gas tank which is flat and smoths out the air under the car.
You seem to be on track with you build.
terry

[White Monster]

As far as I know it is the rules that are the guide line in any form of racing that I have ever seen and it's your prerogative to build your car however you want within the rules. If you want to go with the way the class was intended you do that, but if it's a competitive class you will get you a-s handed to you if you aren't building to the rules.If you are just running for the fun of it why get upset when someone builds a car within the rules and goes faster.
If you can't tell we aren't trying to cheat, we go out of are way to make sure we are within the rules so that no can claim that we are cheating.

Don't get mad it's just a little ol 4 cylinder, what kind of trouble could it cause.

Mike, firstly, please do not make posts with your comments within my quote, as that makes it appear that your comments are actually mine ... and I get into enough trouble by myself, without any help from others !!
Thanks.
 

Secondly, I was attempting to assist John regarding rulebook questions in response to his questions and they were directed to him, not you.  The quotes that I provided (below) are verbatim, right out of the 2009 Rulebook, they are not even my interpretation.

Lastly, you mentioned twice about me getting upset and mad (which I am not) and even though I said it was not my intent to upset anyone, it appears that you have allowed yourself to become so, which is bewildering.

In answering your questions, we must once again look at the intent of the rules.
The Production Category is intended to represent typical transportation vehicles, which may be purchased from ANY automobile dealer for sale to the general public.

Also, Please be aware that starting January 1, 2010, all entrants in this category must have pictures of the car as produced, with their log book for certification purposes.

Production records are subject to approval and will be certified only after comparison with the manufacturer's specifications for the model entered.  The entrant is required to provide suitable documentation.

The rules state that the radiator must be retained in the stock location and be of the same year and manufacture as the body.

[Rick Byrnes]

Hi guys.  Don't read anything into this note.  I have no vested interest in Production based classes, but I successfully
raced F/PS GC and Alt with my old Merkur for 10 years, held several SCTA/BNI records and  the F/PS ECTA record (which i still rent).
Building a Production class car for Maxton, or Lorring, should be no different than for Bonneville.
The special "street" classes not withstanding.

The P/S  classes are no less competitive than any other, and with the increasing popularity of small high powered engines in smaller cars, I think the lower displacement classes will become even more so.  I'm really surprised someone hasn't blown my 16 year old ECTA record into the stratosphere.  That's what happened when someone came along with a serious SRT4. Jorgen (sp) added almost 20 MPH to my record.  New technology, smaller car. (progress and a good committed team)

If Joe says an aftermarket radiator is OK at Maxton, then it will be, but don't set a record at Bonneville and expect to not be protested if you have an aluminum Rabbit radiator in your Toyota, Mitsu, SRT4 or whatever.  I don't participate in door car classes any longer, but will protest a car that I see in impound that is in obvious violation.  The production class must be preserved as representative of what was initially built by the OEM.

For the things that are named in the rule book, there is no interpretation of the rule.  It is and should be black/white.  there is no Intent verses what is written.  You need the parts they say, and those parts need to be production for the body produced.  The parts need to be there, but in some cases they need not function as intended.  There is a difference, and that is where the competitive nature enters.

Specifically, the radiator must Look like the production rad you took out.  It should look enough like original that someone familiar with the car will see it as original.  Is that cheating or taking advantage??  You have to decide which way to build the car.  I'm not saying I did this, but if you modify by adding number of fins per inch to a production radiator is it going to help you go faster? Hell yes.  Is it legal?  Not really.  Will someone notice?  Maybe, maybe not, but when it means an SCTA/BNI  or USFRA record on the salt
you can bet the scrutiny by your competitors is pretty complete.  If you have few or no competitors then perhaps Mr. Dan Warner or one of his folks will notice.  They are all way sharper than you might expect.
An interesting point though is how to prove that parts are original design intent.  Thats where photos and build books will be hepfull.

Now, if you choose to flow ice water thru the original rad, and duct the cold air to the carb bonnet, thats legal.  Of course you need to cool the engine another way, but thats been done.  (This has been done in Production, Gas Coupe and Altered, and I'll bet in every other class as well.  I havent seen them all.

If you have a car that very few racers are familiar with then recognizing a change that may/may not be legal is more difficult for the scrutineers.  That is why SCTA/BNI have made the new requirements of photos and factory printed brochures.  You can believe the rules are being visited regularly to maintain the purity of "PRODUCTION".

And make no mistake, when you go from 1/4 mile Drags, to Maxton, at a full mile, or Lorring at 1 1/2 miles, you WILL want to go to the LONGEST DRAG RACE IN THE WORLD.  I've been to both ECTA venues, and will go to Maine, but my real reason for doing all this is BONNEVILLE, and I think most of you will have the fever as well.

Respectfully

[dw230]

In regards to the intent of the radiator rules is that a full size radiator is mounted in the OEM location. A trans cooler radiator mounted in the wheelwell does not meet the sniff test. The rules do not restrict the use of an aftermarket radiator.

DW

[Rick Byrnes]

I guess I am wrong.  Even though I'm quoting what is in the rule book, I now know there is interpretation of the rules.

Everybody forget everything I said.

There is no black and white, just grey.

As one of my heros said

NEVERMIND

[dw230]

Rick,

I'm confused(easily), I thought your comments were on point and I simply trying to clarify a point.

DW

[1 fast evo 2]

Rick I agree with most of what you said and "I" (don't want to get John in trouble) believe that we are on the same page when we are speaking about the rules whether it be in production or special construction they are there to help guide us to the way the class is intended to be. I can guarantee that john was not trying to gain an advantage as the rad. is of stock size and in the stock location, he doesn't have a small radiator as my car does. My turbo/header setup precludes me running a full size radiator which is one of the major factor in why I haven't taken my car to Bonneville yet.
 I was going to disagree with you however as I have personally seen cars in production classes at Bonneville with aluminum rads before, but DW came to my rescue.

DW- thanks for throwwing that out there so I didn't start doubting myself, it's great to have someone such as yourself clarify things for us.

[1 fast evo 2]

As an aside I would like to apologise to anyone I may have offended with my earlier remarks, it was not my in tension to do so. I was just getting a vibe that I mistook for something else and I got all defensive(sorry).

P.S.-Sort of along these lines I am changing my setup slightly to make my car more along the lines of what people deem a street car, no more side exit exhaust.
Will this slow me down you ask, I don't think so. I believe it is going to go faster due to better aerodynamics. The car will also have alot more power available this year.
I will of course start at base boost and work my way up from there so don't expect any fast passes rite away.
P.P.S-Rick I fully expect Johns car to beat all my records once it is fully shaken down.

[Johntsi]

I think I need to go ahead and get a ECTA membership to get the new rulebook.  At this point I am almost to the point of bringing the car on the trailer to Maxton in April and not racing but just running it through tech to see what will need to be tweaked or changed.  I am a bit concerned about one final item on my car keeping me out of PS but I will wait to see what I am told.  It has been clearly posted numberous times in the build thread and no one has said anything about it so we will just wait and see.