Author Topic: Simple traction control.  (Read 15236 times)

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Offline dw230

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2010, 07:52:05 PM »
Gale Banks made just such a system for Al Teague. Adjustable up to 17% slip.

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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2010, 09:08:36 PM »
We had a single-step indicator on one of the bikes -- when drive wheel speed exceeded non-drive wheel speed (okay, rpm) by a settable percentage - a light would illuminate on the dash.  We labeled it "Warning" -- could have said "Lift, idiot!".  But it did what it was supposed to do.
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Offline robfrey

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2010, 09:28:47 PM »
Slim, Who made that system? Is it still available?
I think I can build something like this but I don't want to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2010, 09:25:01 AM »
It was just using one of the functions on the MoTeC.  Front and rear wheel-speed sensors input to the unit and preset it to the desired difference rate.  Probably lots of other machines will do it -- and lots cheaper than a MoTeC.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline mkilger

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2010, 12:11:07 PM »
hay Slim, traction control  are the orange mile markers?  happy new year.  did I tell you its going to be almost 80 here today :-P

Blue

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2010, 01:47:09 PM »
It was just using one of the functions on the MoTeC.  Front and rear wheel-speed sensors input to the unit and preset it to the desired difference rate.  Probably lots of other machines will do it -- and lots cheaper than a MoTeC.
I'd still use the MoTeC though.  If this is a high power turbo motor, an ECU is a given.  So it costs little more to use the appropriate MoTeC and get all of their functionality and quality.  I know more about ECU's than LSR, and most of the rest are simply junk when the boost gets turned up and we start needing more functions.

Good ECU's limit power by cutting out injection pulses cyclicly through all of the cylinders, essentially turning off cylinders to limit power.  This method lowers the EGT, since no un-burned fuel is going into the exhaust.

To do this without an ECU, I'd hook up a twin engine aircraft tach to front and rear wheel RPM and run my right foot off of the split.  Of course, this means we're somewhat eyes down instead of on the horizon.  My sources on the salt all tell me that there is always some wheel spin and 5 to 9% is common with 10% or more indicating traction problems.

Offline jl222

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2010, 04:02:50 PM »

  Blue

   We ran the Goodyear wide tire [2222 type] tire for 13 years but not every year and it still had small bumps on tires and bought new tires because of age.
   We found that are tires were growing an inch and a half at 275mph exit speed because our tach didn't register enough rpm to go that fast.

                     JL222

Offline Constant Kinetics

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2010, 08:18:07 PM »
If you can find a Range Rover to pull parts from, they have a computerized traction control already set up for a forced air induction (sport models) that monitors and adjust the wheels at a rate of 200 times per second. They're also designed already to work with anything. Engine from England or Germany, Transmission from India, AWD transfer case from USA, German or Italian suspension, etc.. 
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Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2010, 08:04:14 PM »
ummmm Blue.... if your so called "good" ECU cuts pulse width, yes you would effectively limit power..... by going lean and holing a fricken piston... The best way is to pop a blow off valve on a blown motor so you can still stay spooled up... the second best way is to kill ignition... the last thing you want to do is stop feeding fuel to a hot motor that still has spark....
Kent

Offline dieselgeek

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2010, 12:12:20 PM »
It was just using one of the functions on the MoTeC.  Front and rear wheel-speed sensors input to the unit and preset it to the desired difference rate.  Probably lots of other machines will do it -- and lots cheaper than a MoTeC.
I'd still use the MoTeC though.  If this is a high power turbo motor, an ECU is a given.  So it costs little more to use the appropriate MoTeC and get all of their functionality and quality.  I know more about ECU's than LSR, and most of the rest are simply junk when the boost gets turned up and we start needing more functions.

Good ECU's limit power by cutting out injection pulses cyclicly through all of the cylinders, essentially turning off cylinders to limit power.  This method lowers the EGT, since no un-burned fuel is going into the exhaust.

To do this without an ECU, I'd hook up a twin engine aircraft tach to front and rear wheel RPM and run my right foot off of the split.  Of course, this means we're somewhat eyes down instead of on the horizon.  My sources on the salt all tell me that there is always some wheel spin and 5 to 9% is common with 10% or more indicating traction problems.

Normally I try to stay away from the "Big Theory" posts you make, but...  wow.  This one is way off.

First, what qualifies an ECU as "junk" ?  I've spent a lot of time on a test bench with different ECUs and all of them will work fine for what anyone here wants/needs to do.  A friend in a NASCAR engine building shop has been testing at a much higher level of detail than my work a few years back, and what he's finding is that the most popular domestic systems are actually the ones with the most problems...  that's neither here nor there.

Some other corrections:

-Fuel cut is NOT how traction control is implemented in a Motec system, at least not if you expect the engine to live.  It's ridiculous to think that cancellation of an injection event will allow instantaneous "zero" fuel into a given cylinder, unless you are running a Direct Injection setup - in which case, you are not using Motec (or any other commercially available ECU).  Nice in theory, absolutely impossible in practice.

-There's no "use my right foot" on a turbocharged application in the realm of high specific output.   Beyond 35-50% throttle (typically), there is no throttle control of power - you can only close the throttle and lose boost, bigtime.  Or, put more simply, there is NOT a linear relationship between power output and throttle position on any of the turbo engines you'll see running at Bonneville!  not even close

-traction control has been attempted, and most often, disabled - on the fastest 'liners trying to use it.   Even Motec's method is very, very sensitive to tuning.  You have to tune it by trial and error on the salt.

-The best setup I've ever used, is one that links wastegate actuation to throttle position.  After about 50% throttle I like to use an EMS that couples boost control solenoid position to throttle position, which makes a turbo car act much more like a blower or NA car:   this makes power output more linear with throttle position.   THere are some really fast guys that figured this out last year, and I've run it on a couple cars.  In one instance last year, a 75whp reduction in power resulted in 21mph gain in top speed on the next run (we've logged WHP output at varying loads/rpms so we know how much the change in BCS duty cycle improved the ability to drive the car).


Funny thing is, you CAN do the TPS-BCS linking in an $8000 Motec.   But you can also do it on a $230 megasquirt.  

-Scott
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 12:23:52 PM by dieselgeek »

Offline jl222

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2010, 04:24:49 PM »

  One of the simple and least expensive traction controls is limiting  how fast the engine revs,the 101/2 in. tire drag racers
were able to go over 200mph for the first time using this system.

               JL222

   MSD programable digital 7 +

 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 04:27:26 PM by jl222 »

Offline dieselgeek

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2010, 04:27:50 PM »

  One of the simple and least expensive traction controls is limiting  how fast the engine revs,the 101/2 in. tire drag racers
were able to go over 200mph for the first time using this system.

               JL222

 
IMO, this approach doesn't seem to work well on the salt, especially on forced induction engines.  It's very hard on the exhaust valves - it's bad enough on an 8 second pass, but far worse on a 70-90 second pass.  Also, nearly all the turbocharged drag racers out there have moved from the timing-based, slew rate controls you mention, to boost control using an AMS-1000 controller...


Offline jl222

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2010, 04:33:00 PM »

  One of the simple and least expensive traction controls is limiting  how fast the engine revs,the 101/2 in. tire drag racers
were able to go over 200mph for the first time using this system.

               JL222

 
IMO, this approach doesn't seem to work well on the salt, especially on forced induction engines.  It's very hard on the exhaust valves - it's bad enough on an 8 second pass, but far worse on a 70-90 second pass.  Also, nearly all the turbocharged drag racers out there have moved from the timing-based, slew rate controls you mention, to boost control using an AMS-1000 controller...



  Why is it hard on exhaust valves?

Offline dieselgeek

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2010, 04:59:15 PM »

  One of the simple and least expensive traction controls is limiting  how fast the engine revs,the 101/2 in. tire drag racers
were able to go over 200mph for the first time using this system.

               JL222

 
IMO, this approach doesn't seem to work well on the salt, especially on forced induction engines.  It's very hard on the exhaust valves - it's bad enough on an 8 second pass, but far worse on a 70-90 second pass.  Also, nearly all the turbocharged drag racers out there have moved from the timing-based, slew rate controls you mention, to boost control using an AMS-1000 controller...



  Why is it hard on exhaust valves?

Because the "Slew Rate Control" will retard timing.  ON a forced induction motor, this is a poor way to manage power because the combustion charge is burning on it's way out the exhaust valve.  The valves can't decide if they want to keep working, or become a puddle of molten metal.

Offline jl222

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Re: Simple traction control.
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2010, 05:23:03 PM »

 Are you sure thats the way they do it? I thought they just limited the rpm rate in another way, such as dropping cyls.
 
     JL222