Diesel Powered LAKESTER

[argo19c]

Referring to the comment that there are too many classes now; If that is the case, should SCTA/BNI eliminate your class to reduce the work load on the staff. No! There is very little effort to adding a Diesel Lakester Category to the rule book, since the rules other than the obvious, would be the same as for the Diesel Streamliner Category. Remember, just as with any Category, the Diesel Streamliner Category had it's genesis! 
What I am saying is with such a relevant engine type as the Diesel there should be a new Category for a Lakester variety, just as for the gas engines, etc. I feel certain that with such a Category opened up you will see more competing.
 Thanks,
 Ralph Thomas

[Glen]

Some years back a couple of guys wanted a tricycle M/C class and were told they needed 3 to make a class, so they show and bring 2 bikes and entered 1 bike that wasn't there or something to that effect. However the bike class lasted 2 or 3 years with the same 2 guys getting the points and records at the lakes and on the salt. As I recall it was a father and son team. It never gained much interest and was dropped from the class list.

If enough interest was shown and the SCTA would listen and consider it. When they wanted the classic classes it took around 3 years to make it happen. Dan and others spent 100s of hours on it. It not as easy as one thinks.

[RichFox]

I don't know what the rules for ALMS are but those Diesel Audi cars sure do well against gas burning cars. Also there has been discussion for and against F1 cars running at Bonneville on this board. I came away from that thinking it would never happen . Now I understand that F1 cars will be running at the World Finials in 2010. So hang in there. You may get your class.

[interested bystander]

Somebody better contact the F1 people 'cause World Finals and the JAPANESE GRAND PRIX come in conflict on those dates.

I'd also like to know where the approximate 25 million bucks required to book F1 came from.

Certainly not the SCTA/BNI treasury.

Maybe the Wendover casinos.

[McRat]

I don't know what the rules for ALMS are but those Diesel Audi cars sure do well against gas burning cars. Also there has been discussion for and against F1 cars running at Bonneville on this board. I came away from that thinking it would never happen . Now I understand that F1 cars will be running at the World Finials in 2010. So hang in there. You may get your class.

I don't think it's because of peak HP.  It reportedly cost Audi $15 million a year to run the R10 which was the turbo V12 5.5 L, and they were already winning with their gas R8.  They are now running a V10, the R15.  They say they can turn the R10 up past 700HP, but it damages the emissions control system, so they run them at ~600HP.  Yes, they run cleaner than the gasoline entries, and fuel is synthetic diesel made from natural gas.  They get better fuel economy, so now ALMS allows the gas entries to have larger fuel tanks than the diesels are permitted.  They also gave the diesels a weight penalty.

...

[dw230]

"However, today more manufacturers are constructing Diesel Engines and utilizing them for  competition purposes; i.e, Audi, Peugot, etc. So, today the Diesel would be relevant at Bonneville and more would compete with diesels in classes that do not exist now."

This is the same argument that was used to create a Hybrid class for SCTA competition. The promise was that if the class was available all the World's manufacturers would build cars to compete. Ah the media attention it would garner, the untold numbers of units sold - a manufacurer's dream.

We can all see where that lead. All the people in the past that wanted to build a deisel lakester have either not cut pipe or installed a gasoline engine. Do you think they were after a points championship?

Even with the relaxed rules now there has been absolutly no interest. How does a lakester become a "relevant" vehicle for a prodcution vehicle. You should race a VW TDi or some such car that is closer to what the public sees on the street.

DW

[Stan Back]

NHRA has lead the way by rule changes to keep popular non-competitive vehicles in competition  -- like Harleys in Pro Stock Motorcycles.  And spec classes for their premiere vehicles.  SCTA does not have to follow suit.

Stan

[McRat]

NHRA has lead the way by rule changes to keep popular non-competitive vehicles in competition  -- like Harleys in Pro Stock Motorcycles.  And spec classes for their premiere vehicles.  SCTA does not have to follow suit.

Stan

No, the SCTA does not have to allow non-competitive engines, fuels, body styles or designs.  That would leave turbine-powered streamliners, which run fine on diesel.   

J/K...

[bak189]

As Glen noted above at one time there had to be 3 entries in order for SCTA/BNI to make a class..........
In the late 1970's I brought 2 sidecars to the salt......and Mike Parti brought the 3 outfit.......Voila..a sidecar class................and we now all know that this class has certainly taken off........even if the sidecars running at today's SCTA/BNI events, are a "wheel on a stick"  Mike Parti and I did not envision this back when the class was created.........but Hey, politics is politics and SCTA/BNI is a car club, if they were to allow passengers in the sidecar.......Joe Blow would want to take his wife Maggie down the course
in his roadster.................................................................................that is what it is all about!!!!!!

[willieworld]

i thought we were beyond that " wheel on a stick " $hit----all of the sidecar bikes that run at an scta event would pass tech at bub                                        willie buchta

[bak189]

I don't want to get into another"sparring match" with you again, Willie......Yes, most of the SCTA/BNI sidecars
would also pass BUB Tech..........Do you know WHY, both sets of sidecar rules were basicly writing by
,ME,ME,ME, Yes, Me myself and I......The big difference is that at the BUB event the AMA and/or FIM
gives you the option to use a passenger............................................You want to talk sidecars......
start another post.....this one is about "diesel lakesters" , and making of classes................................



 

[argo19c]

Hello, its me again. The argument that Diesel technology should only be demonstrated in a production vehicle at Bonneville, to me, means that the Diesel Streamliners and Trucks that are competiting presently are not at all Relevant. I certainly see that some of the competitiors that are racing gas "Lakesters" now may convert to Diesel and other "Lakesters" might be built if a Diesel "Lakester category were open up.
Regarding the rules for a "Lakester" Category; I certainly do not know what goes on in broadening the present rule book. However, it seems me that the rules would be exactly that of the Diesel "Streamliner" category, minus the additional bodywork. Is that not the case?
Additionally, virtually all of the worlds vehicular manufactors produce vehicles with Diesel power. Advances in Diesel technology have advanced rapidly in the last 20 years. It is concievable that Diesel technology may in the near future exceed todays gas engines. So, why limit such an enormous potential to simply "Liners" and Trucks. I hope that POINTS are not the only reason for not broadening the rules to allow Diesel "Lakesters".
 Thanks,
 Ralph Thomas
   

[McRat]

Warning - Broken Record Alert!!  

Here's the SCTA stats (I'm using the term class, for a specific engine/body/fuel/aspiration/year classification in which a record could be set):

There are 12 diesel streamliner classes (79? other 4 wheeler, and a lot of bikes)
There are 9 diesel-powered pickup classes, including both mini and full size.
There are 4 additional classes, two big-rig diesel specific, two mini/full/big-rig combo classes
Zero door car classes or motorcycle classes.

So 25 diesel classes, with 21 existing BV records (7 over 200mph, and 7 new records since 08), and 10 diesel SCTA racers last year, to the best of my knowledge.  There are divisions that have better participation per class, but those are some pretty good stats for our "little" clan.  

All but 2 allow you to just repower your gas entry with a diesel powerplant, so 2 Diesel-specific classes total.  There are no classes that are specifically  diesel pickup (as sold) even with over 1/2 million diesel pickup sales a year in the US (the most common diesel sold in the US), and many thousands of diesel enthusiasts competing every year in motorsports.  For the big-rigs, there are 4 classes, but only 2 that are specific.  Big-Rig race events are also common in the US as well as Europe.

With the diesels, there are no year classes, engine design classes, naturally aspirated classes, or fuel classes.  Nor do I see a need of any of that.  All should be Compression Ignition and leave it at that, since most all are turbocharged, and there is no fuel monitoring similiar to what the spark classes have.

There are over 200 existing diesel records (mostly cars) dating back to the 1930's, and no idea how many "open" records, but those are monitored by the FIA and require a heavy fine fee to record.  So diesel racing is certainly not "new" or "unique", but is most certainly on the rise.

Much like the gas guys know a lot about their engines, and the roadster guys know alot about their body-style, the diesel enthusiasts are also pretty serious about their sport.  We don't typically race diesels because it's easy.  We race diesels because it's challenging.  

But going back to the original subject of discussion, I still think the best course of action for a DL class would be to fold it into DS for now.  It costs nothing, and won't be much work, and that's how all but 2 of the diesel classes are currently set up.  When at least 3 DL entries hit the track running in DS, then petition for a formal DL.  The records are soft enough still to set them with Lakester bodies, and it gives you more parity than BGL would.

[RichFox]

I think what all that means is that if you want to build a diesel lakester, Go ahead and build it. Run it. That was what I did when I wanted to run a Flathead four cylinder. I didn't agitate for a new class. The next year after I first ran mine a new class that I could qualify for came to be. So I changer my car to fit the new class. After a while the classes grew to include what I started with. Great. But if they never had a V4F class it would have been fine with me. I wouldn't go to Indy and complain that they don't have a V4F class. Or diesel. I'm still thinking those Audis are making serious horsepower.

[Stainless1]

What Rich said...
If you want to run one, by all means build it, unlike a Nascar, you have a class to run in now.  You would run against the same size gas engines. 
Way back when the opened a Diesel streamliner class when they got 3 entries, and a Diesel Truck class when they got 3 entries.... Tricycles... same story

NHRA has lead the way by rule changes to keep popular non-competitive vehicles in competition  -- like Harleys in Pro Stock Motorcycles.  And spec classes for their premiere vehicles.  SCTA does not have to follow suit.

Stan

Stan, they already did... look at Classic.....