Author Topic: Diesel Powered LAKESTER  (Read 18588 times)

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Offline argo19c

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Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« on: December 19, 2009, 09:34:15 AM »
Hello,
 If one was to enter a Diesel Powered LAKESTER, is there a class for such a vehicle. I see in the rule book there is a class for Diesel Powered Streamliner, but not LAKESTER?????

Offline maguromic

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2009, 10:32:13 AM »
Wouldn’t they run in the fuel class as a lakster just like the diesel-powered roadster  :-o that runs in the fuel roadster class?  Tony
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Offline dw230

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2009, 11:32:28 AM »
Actually Tony the car would run in the gas lakester classes. There currently are no diesel lakester classes.

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Offline maguromic

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2009, 11:49:20 AM »
 I always thought any fuel other than event gas would get lumped in the fuel class if it dint fit in a gas or diesel class.  Dan thanks for the clarification.   :cheers: Tony
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2009, 11:54:57 AM »
The diesel-powered roadster runs as a Street Roadster.

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McRat

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2009, 01:35:39 PM »
You can run a diesel power lakester, but it must be in BGL or BFL(?) and run against the spark engines.  That would be a real kick to whup up on the gassers with a diesel, but it's not really a fair fight.  I imagine if you could accomplish that, they would separate out the diesels.

Somebody already has a 90% complete diesel lakester last I checked, and with a Duramax powerplant.  Not sure what they are going to do with it.

The fastest diesel ever at Elmo is ~202? which was the first edition Goodfellow streamliner, also a Dmax.  This was done with about 650HP, IIRC.

I believe the Elmo record is "soft", and if you took a lakester and converted to streamliner, installed a mild 750HP Dmax in it using 4x4, you'd bump that number even with a less than optimum course.  I'd like to think I could push a full-size production diesel pickup past that number, but so far can't prove it.  I've got the power and the acceleration, just haven't been able to get all the bugs out yet.


McRat

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2009, 06:21:55 PM »
To put things in perspective:

A DS is equivalent technically to a BFS.  All the DS records at Bonneville are lower than the GS records, by as much as 145 mph.  Even with no limitations on diesel supercharging or fuel and even with huge $$$ (think JCB), diesels cannot currently compete against naturally aspired gas engines for LSR.  Starting with a Lakester, and having to run against supercharged gas engines, you really don't have a prayer. :-D

Good news is that there are some soft/open DS records at both Bonneville and El Mirage, so convert it to DS.

But if somebody runs a diesel entry and beats an existing spark engine SCTA-BNI LSR record, I will buy you a Black Hat.  It will say I Smoked A Gasser.  Not sure if it can be done, but it would be sweet...  :evil:  



« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 06:25:01 PM by McRat »

Offline argo19c

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2009, 10:00:17 AM »
Ok, thank you for that clarification as to where a Diesel Powered Lakester would compete, in class. Now, the second part of my question; Why is there not a catagory for Diesel Powered Lakesters, since there exists an unfair advantage for the gas powered lakesters and since there are presently catagories for Diesel Powered Streamliner, Trucks, etc?
 Thanks,
 Ralph Thomas

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2009, 10:23:34 AM »
in the past SCTA was not intrested in creating a class for 1 or 2 participants
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Offline argo19c

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2009, 11:07:56 AM »
I understand! However, today more manufacturers are constructing Diesel Engines and utilizing them for  competition purposes; i.e, Audi, Peugot, etc. So, today the Diesel would be relevant at Bonneville and more would compete with diesels in classes that do not exist now.
 Thanks,
 Ralph Thomas   

Offline bvillercr

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2009, 11:17:18 AM »
A saying that I have heard over and over is "we already have too many classes" build to a class that already exist.  You could always submit a new class to the scta rules committee. :cheers:

McRat

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2009, 11:38:47 AM »
Ok, thank you for that clarification as to where a Diesel Powered Lakester would compete, in class. Now, the second part of my question; Why is there not a catagory for Diesel Powered Lakesters, since there exists an unfair advantage for the gas powered lakesters and since there are presently catagories for Diesel Powered Streamliner, Trucks, etc?
 Thanks,
 Ralph Thomas

The way I see it, there are a few things that come into play.

The points competition at Elmo.  Adding more classes means open records, and those are often a big advantage to garner points.
I understand the points chase I guess, but sometimes it interferes with legitimate efforts at record setting.  The minute "sandbagging" becomes an important way of setting records, then it works against the primary goal of LSR.  My opinion is that open class points need to be tweaked a bit.  I'd like to see it be that open records can never go over 200 points until the second year.  You get no bonus points for running against yourself.  Well at least for 1 year.  

Added work to the rulebook committee.  No way around this one that I see, other than volunteering to help.  The saving grace when it comes to diesel classes, is that they are "small".  There is no vintage and no N/A classes.  Diesel classes are currently less than 20% the size of a gas class.  All of them are supercharged, and in my opinion, all should be "fuel" classes since there is not "event diesel" like the rulebook states.  Event diesel at Bonneville for the last two years is me sending Kodiak Johnny to the truckstop to buy pump fuel.  And at Elmo, it's 100% honor system.  While gas racers get to fuel up on racing gasoline, diesel racers cannot fuel up with racing diesel.

Red Hat dilution. Let's face it, if they open up more diesel classes, there will be a number of those who could not get a Red Hat with their gas entry, repowering to diesel to get their hat.  Many of the existing diesel records were set with gas racers that were repowered for diesel.  I'd hate to think of Diesel Racing as being a boooby prize, but it is perhaps thought of that way by some.  

Here's what I would do if I were you, if your heart is totally set on running a diesel-powered lakester, and you are not willing to cover the wheels.  I'd petition for a rule change that permits lakesters to compete in DS.  This doesn't require significant rulebook editing, doesn't make more Open classes, gives you a competitive arena, and would hopefully get more diesel lakester entries to prove a new class is viable.

Because there is a Catch-22 in effect.  You are to build to the rulebook.  There should be at least 3 entries to start a new class.  But who would build something that there is no class for?

My goal is to help where I can to establish a greater presence of diesel racers in all venues of amateur motorsports.  I would love to see more diesels run LSR.  I also want to see a specific Production class for diesels like all the spark engines have.  Since diesel car engines are small, and diesel truck engines are large, it doesn't even have to segregate by body style.  For gas, there is Production Car, Production Supercharged Car, Production Pickup, Production Mini-pickup, maybe more, and I won't even get into the M/C's.  

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2009, 11:54:52 AM »
Most LSR racers would not put an engine in a car that they don't think will be competitive.  When we pick an engine for the Bockscar, we believe it will be competitive.   If you diesel doesn't make a lot of HP normally aspirated, don't run in a GL class, put a blower on it and run BGL, or add N20 or Alcohol in your water injection and run BFL.  If you can't get enough power that way, put the motor in your tow vehicle and run a competitive motor.
If you want to be a DS, cover 2 wheels or put a body panel outside the inner plane of the narrowest tires. 
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McRat

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2009, 12:07:27 PM »
I understand! However, today more manufacturers are constructing Diesel Engines and utilizing them for  competition purposes; i.e, Audi, Peugot, etc. So, today the Diesel would be relevant at Bonneville and more would compete with diesels in classes that do not exist now.
 Thanks,
 Ralph Thomas   

50% of cars in Europe are diesel, and over 60% of the heavy duty pickups in the US are diesel.  In the last 10 years, more and more high-performance diesel models have been created, and it continues to climb.  The fastest growing segment of the performance industry is diesel performance.  

But let's get honest.  A spark engine will always have a huge advantage over a diesel for shear peak output.  It's an RPM thingy.  Our fuel cannot burn fast enough, nor could we instantly have all the fuel in cylinder at once like the spark engines can.  A 9,000 rpm 400ci diesel could potential put out 5,000HP based on airflow, since diesels can run 120+ psig boost.  But even with injection pressures of 30,000 psi, the atomization of the fuel cannot support the RPM.  When you inject the fuel, it cools the air, and suppresses ignition.  Only vaporized liquids burn, and vaporizing liquid absorbs heat.  If our air temps drops below about 800F, the fuel doesn't ignite correctly, if at all.    

So diesel racing will probably always be at a disadvantage when peak engine output is the overwhelming factor in results.  Roadracing is not as dependent as LSR or dragracing on max engine output, hence the excellent showing in endurance racing.  


McRat

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Re: Diesel Powered LAKESTER
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2009, 12:22:36 PM »
...If you can't get enough power that way, put the motor in your tow vehicle ....  

Or just race your tow vehicle.   :evil:

Works for me.

There are all kinds of classes for "uncompetitive" engines.  A Naturally Aspirated class is one, as are the vintage engines.  Uncompetitive engine classes greatly outnumber competitive classes.  Blown Fuel or Turbine are the best engines for maximum power.  If you think about it, turbines run off diesel, or their close cousins.  

All diesel classes are blown classes.  Unblown diesels can not be supercharged easily without destroying them, and have truly wimpy power.  Anyone who has driven a 6.2 Chevy can attest to that.  I don't think they even make them anymore except for non-automotive uses.  Even cargo ships are blown for fuel economy.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 08:04:09 PM by McRat »