Author Topic: Oxygen Injection  (Read 21905 times)

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McRat

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2009, 02:39:40 PM »
Seriously, "moderation in all things" applies to a lot of non-standard power adders and chemicals.

Oxygen probably can't hurt at low levels.  Water/Meth is safe, nitrous, propane injection (diesel), and IMO anti-freeze as well, IF YOU DON'T GO NUTS.  Too much meth will wreck a diesel, too much nitrous can backfire violently, getting greedy with BBQ bottle has busted lots of diesels, and 25% coolant is no real danger, but 100% is.  Low concentration H2O2 is very safe as well, I use it to clean wounds all the time.

A good example of an allowable fuel that is potentially dangerous if misused is 2EHN.  A diesel fuel additive for improving combustion, it is permitted in DS and UDT (but oddly not other classes, even though many of the tow trucks in the pits have it, and premium pump diesel contains some).  In it's diluted state it's the most common diesel fuel treatment on earth.  But in it's pure state it's dangerous to handle.  If it gets too warm, even a sealed container will explode, and certain chemicals will also ignite it.  But once in solution, it's very safe.

Offline bbarn

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2009, 02:49:58 PM »
Seriously, "moderation in all things" applies to a lot of non-standard power adders and chemicals.

Oxygen probably can't hurt at low levels.  Water/Meth is safe, nitrous, propane injection (diesel), and IMO anti-freeze as well, IF YOU DON'T GO NUTS.  Too much meth will wreck a diesel, too much nitrous can backfire violently, getting greedy with BBQ bottle has busted lots of diesels, and 25% coolant is no real danger, but 100% is.  Low concentration H2O2 is very safe as well, I use it to clean wounds all the time.

A good example of an allowable fuel that is potentially dangerous if misused is 2EHN.  A diesel fuel additive for improving combustion, it is permitted in DS and UDT (but oddly not other classes, even though many of the tow trucks in the pits have it, and premium pump diesel contains some).  In it's diluted state it's the most common diesel fuel treatment on earth.  But in it's pure state it's dangerous to handle.  If it gets too warm, even a sealed container will explode, and certain chemicals will also ignite it.  But once in solution, it's very safe.

Take oxyacetylene, how many of us have it in our shops? Acetylene without an inhibitor will readily explode from heat, pressure, spark or open flame. Use it in moderation and it is one of the most powerful tools in the shop. It can be used to bend, cut, swell or loosen depending on your needs. Take out the moderators and it can raise a roof several hundred feet in the air in short order. Most things in life work best under some form of moderation, that's the trick.
I almost never wake up cranky, I usually just let her sleep in.

Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2009, 03:08:57 PM »
Reaching back into dim memory, seems like the pioneer Barney Navarro tried it either at the lakes or Bonneville.

Oxygen is an agent that supports the combustion of fuel by definition, so not a fuel.

We breathe oxygen but eat burritos for fuel -you know what the results are.

Extract from Hot Rod bio of Barney (http://www.hotrod.com/newsstand/hrdp_0805_hot_rod_legend_barney_navarro/index.html):

That day, Barney ran 109 mph with a 182ci V-8 he hadn't even fired until he got to the Lakes (there was no time to fool around; he knew it would run) and was clocking about 135 on alcohol (by his tach) when the fuel mixture backfired through a pair of oxygen-injected 97s and his engine caught fire. The final photo showed Barney intently putting out the blaze himself with a Pyrene extinguisher. Asked how he felt about the situation, Barney snapped, "I know what's the matter, and next time, I'm installing a bigger fuel line. And then: the record!"

Mike

Edit: fixed link to work  :oops:
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 08:19:21 PM by 4-barrel Mike »
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline willieworld

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2009, 03:25:13 PM »
when you use nitrous oxide you arnt putting any oxygen into the system until the nitrous comes up to temp. then it turns to 34 percent oxygen----about 14 percent more than the air that you breath---it is very safe until it comes up to temp. ----much better to use than oxygen too    willie buchta
willie-dpombatmir-buchta

Offline John Burk

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2009, 04:11:30 PM »
Oxygen injection reminds me of the old trick where you put a styrofoam coffee cup upside down on the floor with a small hole in the bottom , adjust the flame on the torch to neutral , snuff out the flame on the sole of your shoe , put the tip in the hole in the cup till all the air is gone and relight the torch and point it at the cup . Many db Kambam!! and no cup/engine .

HotRodV8

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2009, 04:55:39 PM »
Oxygen injection reminds me of the old trick where you put a styrofoam coffee cup upside down on the floor with a small hole in the bottom , adjust the flame on the torch to neutral , snuff out the flame on the sole of your shoe , put the tip in the hole in the cup till all the air is gone and relight the torch and point it at the cup . Many db Kambam!! and no cup/engine .


John Burk - -

Small world after all. That is where I learned about the power of oxygen. I worked in a Wayne, New Jersey body shop and I was taught the same lesson. We actually used large paper cups we had from our lunch meal. Put them on the work bench, on their side with the plastic lid over the edge, remove the straw and put the torch into the straw hole and fill. Then came hi-tech. We put about 8 inches of masking tape over the hole with it hanging down as the fuse. After you lit the bottom of the tape, you had a good 6 or 7 seconds to walk over to the other side of the shop and turn.
The boss sometimes got mad because all the dust from the rafters would come down on the cars. And now, 45 years later, I'm trying to light that fuse again and go fast. Things never change.
BTW, did you drive a 1962 Chevy 409 by any chance?

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2009, 05:02:41 PM »
2EHN (2-ethylhexyl nitrate ) is used in about 10% concentration in diesels. You are right, the amount makes a difference. 2% hydrogen peroxide cleans your wound and 100% cleans your rocket.

Acetylene will explode if you turn the pressure up too high. The acetylene is contained in a metal cylinder with a porous filling (Agamassan), which renders it safe to transport and use.

Fill up a cup? I took an 8" party balloon and filled it with oxy/acetylene. I put it in an empty dumpster and used a trail of gasoline for a fuse. It blew both doors into a really nice arch shape.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
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It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline fwillyj

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2009, 05:50:28 PM »
-I tried the link to the Navarro story---couldn't get it to work but got to the story with this link

http://www.hotrod.com/newsstand/hrdp_0805_hot_rod_legend_barney_navarro/index.html

Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2009, 06:46:14 PM »
Fill up a cup? I took an 8" party balloon and filled it with oxy/acetylene. I put it in an empty dumpster and used a trail of gasoline for a fuse. It blew both doors into a really nice arch shape.

a fool I know filled a lilo( air mattress) as a stunt at a New Years Eve party held by some bikers, not sure of the mix but there were local reports of an earthquake(!) and less than subtle recriminations from the attendees for the collateral damage and the fact that the gendarmes arrived , and closed it down .
Few understand what I'm trying to do but they vastly outnumber those who understand why...................

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McRat

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2009, 06:57:49 PM »
2EHN (2-ethylhexyl nitrate ) is used in about 10% concentration in diesels.
...

I wonder if 2EHN would be a good additive for gasoline racing engines?  It does oxygenate to an extent.

For street, dragracing, and sledpulling we use maybe 1-2% to keep the injectors and pump clean, the same levels as I run in the tow vehicles.  For LSR, none.

Someday I need to get around to dyno testing various concentrations and fuel blends.  Mfr claims huge gains with additives, but I never trust mfr claims.  I already figured out nitromethane doesn't mix well with diesel.  Pity...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 07:35:51 PM by McRat »

Offline Bob Wanner

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2009, 08:20:32 PM »
The Russian super-cavitating "Shkval" rocket Torpedo uses Aluminum for fuel. It's claimed to reach speeds of over 200 knots. Remember, that's underwater. Be nice to get one of these already streamlined  beauties on wheels, see what it does on land.
Google this and you'll be stuck in WW II War stories for hours.
Bob, Fuelish, W

HotRodV8

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2009, 09:40:45 PM »
2EHN (2-ethylhexyl nitrate ) is used in about 10% concentration in diesels.
...

I wonder if 2EHN would be a good additive for gasoline racing engines?  It does oxygenate to an extent.

For street, dragracing, and sledpulling we use maybe 1-2% to keep the injectors and pump clean, the same levels as I run in the tow vehicles.  For LSR, none.

Someday I need to get around to dyno testing various concentrations and fuel blends.  Mfr claims huge gains with additives, but I never trust mfr claims.  I already figured out nitromethane doesn't mix well with diesel.  Pity...

McRat - -

I want to say that I have been impressed with the extent of your replies related to my oxygen question. Your knowledge of diesel and other related fuels gave me an education of the complexity of my question of looking for more power with just simple oxygen. It is clear to me why you hold several records in the diesel class. I don't ever think I'd be able to run in a diesel class because you have shown me there is too much for me to learn to be competitive. However, I must say I am totally impressed with those diesel transAm cars I see racing on Speed TV.

I'll probably stick with the gas route and perhaps go with a turbo if I feel frisky. I am more of a mechanical guy then a chemist. However, plan B could always take your suggestion of nitrous oxide.

 I have learned from everyone who replied. I have received several PMs giving me additional technical thoughts. Thanks to you and all others. I really like this Forum.  :-D  :cheers:

McRat

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2009, 12:24:00 PM »
2EHN (2-ethylhexyl nitrate ) is used in about 10% concentration in diesels.
...

I wonder if 2EHN would be a good additive for gasoline racing engines?  It does oxygenate to an extent.

For street, dragracing, and sledpulling we use maybe 1-2% to keep the injectors and pump clean, the same levels as I run in the tow vehicles.  For LSR, none.

Someday I need to get around to dyno testing various concentrations and fuel blends.  Mfr claims huge gains with additives, but I never trust mfr claims.  I already figured out nitromethane doesn't mix well with diesel.  Pity...

McRat - -

I want to say that I have been impressed with the extent of your replies related to my oxygen question. Your knowledge of diesel and other related fuels gave me an education of the complexity of my question of looking for more power with just simple oxygen. It is clear to me why you hold several records in the diesel class. I don't ever think I'd be able to run in a diesel class because you have shown me there is too much for me to learn to be competitive. However, I must say I am totally impressed with those diesel transAm cars I see racing on Speed TV.

I'll probably stick with the gas route and perhaps go with a turbo if I feel frisky. I am more of a mechanical guy then a chemist. However, plan B could always take your suggestion of nitrous oxide.

 I have learned from everyone who replied. I have received several PMs giving me additional technical thoughts. Thanks to you and all others. I really like this Forum.  :-D  :cheers:

You're welcome.   :cheers:

However, I'm just a newbie at LSR, and I'm still learning.  This site is a great resource to learn at, there are some really smart guys here.  We still haven't gotten our truck to run correctly, so I'm certainly no genius.  I started "bombing" (a slang for hotrodding a diesel, and somehow quite ironic) diesels in 2004, so I'm even a bit new to that world as well.  I'm a serious diesel advocate and enthusiast, but have way more questions than answers.

Diesels are not harder to hotrod than gassers, but race parts are far more rare, and way more expensive.  For us, A set of better rods is about $3000, one piston is about $400 (stock), headgaskets are $200 a pair (stock), one stock injector is $400.  There is no throttle or air-fuel ratio or pre-ignition to worry about, so tuning is just injection timing, pressure, and amount.  You can build a mechanical diesel with NO electrical system at all.  If you push started it, you wouldn't even need a battery.  But ours is a modern computerized diesel with more wires and computers than a typical late model gas engine, which is the hardest part to deal with.

The good news is that most diesel engines can be turned up to at least twice the factory rating with stock parts (when racing).  So if your HP needs are modest, it's just a matter of tuning.

The diesel hotrod community is interesting.  You have farmers, truckers, and guys with engineering degrees, all competing at the same events.  Never take the farmers or truckers lightly, currently they are the dominant force.  Being book smart isn't as important as experience.  Don't make the mistake of thinking a bombed farm tractor is not just as sophisticated as any other race engine, or less expensive.  Some of these guys make their own engine blocks, pistons, and heads, and the level of secrecy is at least as high as other racing if not higher. 

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If the USA would embrace modern diesel technology instead of trying to stop it, we could rid ourselves of dependence on middle-eastern oil.  A diesel-electric hybrid the size and performance of a Prius would get at least 20% better mileage, and require 24% fewer barrels of oil to be refined.  Making diesel SUV's and half ton pickups would save even more.  You won't lose performance or drivability, you'll just use less fuel with today's existing technology.  No additional infrastructure is needed, no technological hurdles to be overcome, and no trade-offs from a driver's perspective. 

GM developed a "plug-n-play" 300HP 4.5L diesel small form factor V8 that will bolt in anywhere a V8 gas engine normally goes.  It's finished and they are sitting in warehouses.  Some junkyards have the test engines for sale.  Due to it's higher initial cost, tighter government restrictions, and GM's financial woes, they abandoned the 2010 release.  I'd be driving one right now if they would have shipped them.  If our government is in control of GM, how come they did not want to save fuel?

It's not a replacement for rechargeable electrics, or hydrogen fuel cells, but it's cheaper, with less trade-offs, and will actually work with the vehicles that the average American likes to drive.  And it can be done NOW.  This year, not 20 years in the future.  And in 20 years diesels will be even better.  Ethanol is a poor excuse for a motor fuel, hydrogen comes from fossil fuels, as is much of our electricity, but diesel made from plants has a wildly higher yield per acre than any other fuel and no significant performance hit.  And diesel can be made from natural gas, a fossil fuel we have a surplus of. 

How hard would it be for the government to get diesels on the road for the average American?  One change in the accounting register.  Move the diesel fuel tax over to the gas tax.  Since gasoline is used in far higher amounts, the initial change would be about 2 cents in gas prices.  But suddenly the diesel option is now far more attractive, with a cost per mile of 2/3'rds that of gasoline at first.  As more diesels come online, that number gets better and better, without a sudden crush targeting the common automobile driver.  They will be gently moved over to diesel in the name of fuel economy without giving up any performance or making them drive some little POS they don't want to buy.

Now I will admit to being frustrated with LSR diesel rules, as they forbid bio-diesel or diesel derived from natural gas, but that another informercial for a later date.










Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2009, 01:20:57 PM »
McRat:

I agree with pretty much all you said and with the direction you're headed. As you found out at ElMirage though, when the weather gets cold diesel loses some of its appeal. Today we're headed well below 0 degrees F. up here and you either leave diesel running or draw lots of electricity to keep it warm enough so it will start when the situation arises. There are still some challenges to overcome.

Pete

McRat

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2009, 01:35:29 PM »
McRat:

I agree with pretty much all you said and with the direction you're headed. As you found out at ElMirage though, when the weather gets cold diesel loses some of its appeal. Today we're headed well below 0 degrees F. up here and you either leave diesel running or draw lots of electricity to keep it warm enough so it will start when the situation arises. There are still some challenges to overcome.

Pete

Yeah, gelling is a beach, and a valid concern.   :|

Even a block heater (most diesels come with these, and they plug into 110v), you can gell the fuel in the filter and lines.  Winter diesel is cut with kerosene, and some guys will blend in up to 10% gasoline (I don't recommend that).  Using the max amount of diesel fuel treatment will help.  It's not a huge problem, but always strikes when you are late for work as my Canadian and Alaskan friends have told me.  Seems the fuel has intelligent bacteria in it that can sense not only the time of day, but how important your trip is.  On common rail diesels, it's a little better because of the high fuel return rates that help heat the tank, and modern plastic tanks insulate the fuel better.

Our problem was removal of the glowplug circuit, low-compression racing pistons, and pure water coolant, not necessarily gelling.  Even if I was a gasser, there was a potential of freezing the coolant.