Author Topic: Oxygen Injection  (Read 21831 times)

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Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2009, 12:46:12 AM »




[/quote]
McRat - Let me UN-Seriously Kidding you. As I scratch my head, I seem to remember that back in the 60's they had a hydrogen peroxide kit you could put on your differential and you could ignite it for a limited time on the drag strip or even on the street. The hp increase was big time. Does anyone remember these kits? NO kidding.
[/quote]




I have an old Hot Rod mag somewhere in the garage with an ad for what you are talking about.  Now I'll have to go waste an hour looking for it!
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

Offline desotoman

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2009, 12:55:49 AM »

Reaching back into dim memory, seems like the pioneer Barney Navarro tried it either at the lakes or Bonneville.


You are 100% correct. Back in the early 1980's I went to Barney's shop to see if he was interested in updating his Flathead heads to newer standards. He was interested so we worked together for the next several years developing what is now his Hi Dome head. But that is another story.

While I was working with him he told me stories about the old days of racing at the tracks and how Old Man Edelbrock was running Nitro in his midgets. Said it was no secret especially when you got behind him in a race. Barney used to write articles for either Hot Rod or Hop Up, so he writes this article on how Edelbrock is running Nitro in his midgets. Well back then all advertisers got a copy of the magazine before it went to print. When Edelbrock saw the article he had a fit, called up the Editor of the Magazine and told him he was going to cancel all his ads unless the article was retracted. The Editor took the liberty of changing the article around and eliminating what Edelbrock did not like, to keep him happy. When Barney saw the article he was furious, went in to the editor and said this is not what I wrote. The editor told Barney what happened with Vic Edelbrock and said he had to change his article. Well needless to say Barney pissed and never wrote another article for that magazine.

So Barney decided to up Edelbrock at this own game and use Oxygen. He told me they took a 6" diameter Pipe about 4' long and would inject oxygen into it with a flame. He said at first it sounded like a tommy gun going off, but louder. He said it was so loud the Glendale Police would be called and drive by looking for the culprits making the noise. Finally they got the ratio of Oxygen down to where it would burn and not boom. Then he converted his center carb on his flathead to work off Oxygen. Said it was a fine line, that when it worked it worked great, but when it didn't he would melt the carb off the manifold. I believe he was the one that got it banned. Those were some great stories.

Tom G.    
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HotRodV8

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2009, 01:25:01 AM »

Reaching back into dim memory, seems like the pioneer Barney Navarro tried it either at the lakes or Bonneville.


You are 100% correct. Back in the early 1980's I went to Barney's shop to see if he was interested in updating his Flathead heads to newer standards. He was interested so we worked together for the next several years developing what is now his Hi Dome head. But that is another story.

While I was working with him he told me stories about the old days of racing at the tracks and how Old Man Edelbrock was running Nitro in his midgets. Said it was no secret especially when you got behind him in a race. Barney used to write articles for either Hot Rod or Hop Up, so he writes this article on how Edelbrock is running Nitro in his midgets. Well back then all advertisers got a copy of the magazine before it went to print. When Edelbrock saw the article he had a fit, called up the Editor of the Magazine and told him he was going to cancel all his ads unless the article was retracted. The Editor took the liberty of changing the article around and eliminating what Edelbrock did not like, to keep him happy. When Barney saw the article he was furious, went in to the editor and said this is not what I wrote. The editor told Barney what happened with Vic Edelbrock and said he had to change his article. Well needless to say Barney pissed and never wrote another article for that magazine.

So Barney decided to up Edelbrock at this own game and use Oxygen. He told me they took a 6" diameter Pipe about 4' long and would inject oxygen into it with a flame. He said at first it sounded like a tommy gun going off, but louder. He said it was so loud the Glendale Police would be called and drive by looking for the culprits making the noise. Finally they got the ratio of Oxygen down to where it would burn and not boom. Then he converted his center carb on his flathead to work off Oxygen. Said it was a fine line, that when it worked it worked great, but when it didn't he would melt the carb off the manifold. I believe he was the one that got it banned. Those were some great stories.

Tom G.    

Tom G. aka desotoman --

What a great story. That story should be in a book somewhere.
So interesting that others like Barney Navarro tried oxygen years ago. More interesting is that he got it to work. . . some of the time. I appreciate you telling us this story.
Now, if you can get that ratio recipe he used please PM me. LOL.
I knew I should have been born in California instead of New Jersey.

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2009, 01:36:28 AM »
The real problem with oxygen comes when there's an accident. A minor accident becomes a major conflagration if the valve or regulator system is damaged. I doubt whether any responsible racing organization would allow an oxygen cylinder in a race car. I know there was a fatality at Bonneville a lot of years ago when the driver of a streamliner was using breathing oxygen. I think that probably ended the use of oxygen in lsr right there.

Pete

HotRodV8

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2009, 02:17:58 AM »
The real problem with oxygen comes when there's an accident. A minor accident becomes a major conflagration if the valve or regulator system is damaged. I doubt whether any responsible racing organization would allow an oxygen cylinder in a race car. I know there was a fatality at Bonneville a lot of years ago when the driver of a streamliner was using breathing oxygen. I think that probably ended the use of oxygen in lsr right there.

Pete

Pete --

I think you are correct. I don't know the history of Bonneville but I take your info at face value. I do remember reading in the rule book about no use of breathing by oxygen tank. The reality of using an oxygen cylinder is not the problem with burning up an engine, but with the dangers of a broken or damaged oxygen cylinder inside a vehicle during an accident. Again, I refer back to the dangers McRat spoke of before.

Your story also reminds me of a commercial jet plane crash about 5 years ago here in Florida. It may have been Jet Blue Airlines? Not sure. They shipped used passenger oxygen cylinders on a commercial flight, with some oxygen remaining in them, back to a maintenance airport to be filled. During the flight, the cylinders leaked, easily causing an on-board fire that burned VERY quickly. The plane came straight down in the Everglades. The majority of the passengers and fuselage were never found deep in the muck.

I now feel the reality of using oxygen is not a matter of engine performance, but a matter of life and death. My question has been answered.

Offline floydjer

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2009, 09:22:13 AM »
If I WERE going to try such a thing, I'd use a retail car, hopefully one with a DI gasoline (2009 V6 Camaro) or diesel engine.  This way you don't have to worry about pre-ignition, since the fuel is injected during late compression cycle, not before.

Now concentrated hydrogen peroxide might be a lot of fun ...


I'm kidding folks!  Seriously kidding.



McRat - Let me UN-Seriously Kidding you. As I scratch my head, I seem to remember that back in the 60's they had a hydrogen peroxide kit you could put on your differential and you could ignite it for a limited time on the drag strip or even on the street. The hp increase was big time. Does anyone remember these kits? NO kidding.
Google "Turbonique"
I`d never advocate drugs,alcohol,violence or insanity to anyone...But they work for me.

Offline bearingburner

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2009, 09:26:52 AM »
Concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide is nasty stuff. At a plant where I worked we used 50% for bleaching. A drop on your skin instantly bleached and burned the skin. Piping and storage vessels were high purity aluminul or 316 ss. the SS had to be passified with nitric acid be for use. 75% hydrogen peroxide was delivered by truck and diluted to 50%, A new driver emptied out his delivery hose of 75% on the ground. Within 1/2 an hour the ground was on fire.

Offline floydjer

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2009, 10:05:01 AM »
Let`s not forget Mickey Thompson`s "Thermo-Charger". A bank of high pressure cylinders on a manifold feeding into where the blower should have been.
I`d never advocate drugs,alcohol,violence or insanity to anyone...But they work for me.

HotRodV8

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2009, 10:27:25 AM »
If I WERE going to try such a thing, I'd use a retail car, hopefully one with a DI gasoline (2009 V6 Camaro) or diesel engine.  This way you don't have to worry about pre-ignition, since the fuel is injected during late compression cycle, not before.

Now concentrated hydrogen peroxide might be a lot of fun ...


I'm kidding folks!  Seriously kidding.



McRat - Let me UN-Seriously Kidding you. As I scratch my head, I seem to remember that back in the 60's they had a hydrogen peroxide kit you could put on your differential and you could ignite it for a limited time on the drag strip or even on the street. The hp increase was big time. Does anyone remember these kits? NO kidding.
Google "Turbonique"

floydjer - -

I did Google Turbonique and was happily surprised to see so much info on this hydrogen peroxide rocket motor to adapt to a differential. It all came back to me. I remember seeing those pictures of the go-kart racing and beating a fuel dragster. I remember an ad saying "Bolt on 850 hp." And it was developed by a guy in Florida, ex NASA employee. I almost bought one of these. If I did I would have remembered that name.

One Google article talked about an Australian  Rosco McGlashan who in 1980 drove a go-kart that went 253 mph. He was known as Australian's fastest man. The article ended with Rosco planning an assult on the world land speed record.

The same article mentioned that NHRA banned the use of this bolt-on rocket motor because of the associations with explosions and the use of hydrogen peroxide itself.
floydjer, thanks for that info source.

How come all the fun and go fast stuff is so dangerous?

McRat

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2009, 10:37:03 AM »
I was going to inject the H2O2 into the intake tract.  First it would cool the charge air, then when the piston came up, I believe the heat will cause it to disassociate (turn to steam) and increase cylinder pressure a great amount drop EGT's compared to fueling at same HP, increase boost, and improve piston and turbo life.

Not sure if it will react by heat alone, or how much heat it would take, or whether the reaction would be fast enough.  

Offline floydjer

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2009, 11:19:45 AM »
I`m hoping Freud chimes in soon.
I`d never advocate drugs,alcohol,violence or insanity to anyone...But they work for me.

HotRodV8

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2009, 12:20:47 PM »
I was going to inject the H2O2 into the intake tract.  First it would cool the charge air, then when the piston came up, I believe the heat will cause it to disassociate (turn to steam) and increase cylinder pressure a great amount drop EGT's compared to fueling at same HP, increase boost, and improve piston and turbo life.

Not sure if it will react by heat alone, or how much heat it would take, or whether the reaction would be fast enough.  

McRat - -

You lost me on this one. I believe you were talking about your truck which has a turbo. My experience is zero with turbos. I haven't raced in 45 years and I have no idea what H2O2 might do if you tried it as you say. If you do, heed your own handling cautions. And perhaps you might try that on a cheaper motor first.

The reason I wondered about oxygen injection is because of my lack of experience with turbos. I was looking for a cheap, mild-exotic way to increase power in a small engine that I could afford to do. I don't have  8 to 10 years to learn and experiment with turbos. Six months ago, I didn't know what an intercooler was. I still don't know what they look like inside. I haven't seen any of those pictures yet. However, I don't consider turbos to be a new trick, yet I do consider myself an old dog.
I want so much to race on the salt. I feel like buying one of those cattle salt licks and putting it in the back yard. When the frustration level gets too high, I'd go out back for a few minutes.

McRat

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2009, 01:30:46 PM »
I was going to inject the H2O2 into the intake tract.  First it would cool the charge air, then when the piston came up, I believe the heat will cause it to disassociate (turn to steam) and increase cylinder pressure a great amount drop EGT's compared to fueling at same HP, increase boost, and improve piston and turbo life.

Not sure if it will react by heat alone, or how much heat it would take, or whether the reaction would be fast enough.  

McRat - -

You lost me on this one. I believe you were talking about your truck which has a turbo. My experience is zero with turbos. I haven't raced in 45 years and I have no idea what H2O2 might do if you tried it as you say. If you do, heed your own handling cautions. And perhaps you might try that on a cheaper motor first.

The reason I wondered about oxygen injection is because of my lack of experience with turbos. I was looking for a cheap, mild-exotic way to increase power in a small engine that I could afford to do. I don't have  8 to 10 years to learn and experiment with turbos. Six months ago, I didn't know what an intercooler was. I still don't know what they look like inside. I haven't seen any of those pictures yet. However, I don't consider turbos to be a new trick, yet I do consider myself an old dog.
I want so much to race on the salt. I feel like buying one of those cattle salt licks and putting it in the back yard. When the frustration level gets too high, I'd go out back for a few minutes.

Nitrous is what you are looking for.  Two solenoids, one fuel, one nitrous, retard timing, and instant turbo.

H2O2 is hydrogen peroxide.  It also releases oxygen.  It is both an oxidizer, and a monopropellant - something that burns all by itself with no air needed.  And something that can explode and kill you without warning.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 01:34:43 PM by McRat »

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2009, 01:46:12 PM »
Keep it in mind that H2O2, Hydrazine, Propylene Oxide, and any other thing that might come to mind isn't an "approved fuel".
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

McRat

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Re: Oxygen Injection
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2009, 02:22:59 PM »
I'd like to see them add aluminum to the approved fuel list.  Seems to give me a good HP boost to use the pistons for fuel.

Refuelling however, sucks. :|