Author Topic: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner  (Read 27261 times)

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Offline RichFox

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2010, 10:18:59 AM »
I doubt a Gilmer belt would live for as long as it would need to in your application, after further thought. They get some pretty good Feet per second going driving a blower in A/D class cars but lots of failures after 4 or 5 seconds. Some of the twin drive trucks I worked on years ago had two driveshafts leading aft from the transfer case and some had a drop in double reduction single shaft drive. Leaving out the double reduction, which will you be thinking about? I have no opinion. Just curious.

Offline bbarn

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2010, 10:48:40 AM »
I doubt a Gilmer belt would live for as long as it would need to in your application, after further thought. They get some pretty good Feet per second going driving a blower in A/D class cars but lots of failures after 4 or 5 seconds. Some of the twin drive trucks I worked on years ago had two driveshafts leading aft from the transfer case and some had a drop in double reduction single shaft drive. Leaving out the double reduction, which will you be thinking about? I have no opinion. Just curious.

Not my baileywick, I'll have to defer to Rob on this one. He is the expert on HP and getting it out and down to the ground. Hopefully by the end of this project, I'll be in a better position to answer these types of questions.

Rob, correct me if I am wrong, but there will be a single output from the transmission to the front diff and a single output from the front diff to the rear. Each diff will have it's own quick change gearing and neither will be aware of the other...unless we use dissimilar gearing in each :-o which would probably be bad. Also, there is no transfer case.
I almost never wake up cranky, I usually just let her sleep in.

Offline Stan Back

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2010, 10:50:01 AM »
Eye no nuttin about arrows (Street Roadster owner).

But I would sure like to see the twin-tank idea ressurected (with or without wing on rear axle).  Seems like it would have some of the features you desire and they could be made equal weights with alloy engine and/or tank locations.  

Besides, it just looks cool!

Stan
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2010, 10:53:26 AM »

There are a couple of advantages: First, we are cutting the torque forces in half, let's assume we are generating 1800# of torque. If we put that through a single diff, that diff has to be capable of handling 1800fp. If we run that same through two diffs, each one needs to be capable of handling 900fp, thereby reducing the stress on the components. As well, we are doubling the contact area for traction, one of the unknowns here is how much traction loss will there be on the aft wheels from loose salt thrown up from the front drive wheels. Using tandem axles reduces the radial loads on the tires and provides some redundancy. I suspect that if a forward tire were to give out, it would more than likely take the aft one with it (depending on how it failed), so redundancy is a little less of a benefit. Also, see my other post about the axle fairing and down force generation.

I am not familiar with the Gilmer belt drive, is it capable of 7,000-9,000 rpm?
[/quote]

One thing I see that you need to take a good long look at as far as splitting the torque loads in dual rear axles. I work as a heavy truck tech. Twin screw drive is the norm in the field. We regularly see shattered u-joints, differentials, axles, and pinions. Every component in the drive train is rated to safely take all the torque that the engine can deliver under normal circumstances.

The problem comes when a wheel looses traction for an instant and then grabs again. The resulting shock load through the drive train can amount to several times the nominal torque being applied, and the weakest part is immediately identified. Sometimes multiple parts fail at the same instant.

You may be tempted to think that since the salt doesn't provide the same traction as pavement, this can't be a problem. In fact, this type of failure is far more common in the winter, because the limited traction makes it more likely for a wheel to slip and grab. We've had 3 towed in so far this week.

I'm not saying that your set up would be doomed to failure and won't work, just pointing out a potential failure mode. :cheers:

One other thing to look at is the method of coupling the rear ends. In the pics of these set ups that I've looked at I only see 2 differentials. In the trucks there are 3, one in each rear end and one separating the input power between the two (called the power divider). The power divider is essential to proper operation because it allows the axle differentials to spin a slightly different speeds without binding up the drive train. Another relatively common failure that we see in the shop is when a driver locks in the power divider and takes off down the road. It usually burns up the diff or overheats and shatters the power divider in about 50-100 miles at highway speeds. I'd hate to think what 400MPH would do. This is because any time that you have 2 diffs they will be spinning at slightly different speeds unless the gears and tires are absolutely identical. I find it very hard to believe that you can find 4 tires that are absolutely identical in rollout diameter at all speeds. Normal manufacturing tolerances will inevitably produce some differences, which will translate into a very slight but significant difference in speeds between the axles, resulting in binding of the gears and excess drag, at best, catastrophic failure at worst without a power divider installed.

If you already have one in the design, forget that last paragraph.  :-D
Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2010, 11:19:49 AM »
"...In the trucks there are 3, one in each rear end and one separating the input power between the two (called the power divider). The power divider is essential to proper operation because it allows the axle differentials to spin a slightly different speeds without binding up the drive train. Another relatively common failure that we see in the shop is when a driver locks in the power divider and takes off down the road. It usually burns up the diff or overheats and shatters the power divider in about 50-100 miles at highway speeds..."

Now I know what happened to our semi tractor.  Our lamebrain driver no doubt left the power divider locked when he drove down the road (on a 400-mile each way) trip -- and that's why the only way the truck will move now is when locked "in" -- otherwise the drive shaft just spins happily, all content because it's not delivering any power to a drive wheel.  Yep - your analysis of what might happen -- happens.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline bbarn

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2010, 11:26:48 AM »
All good info Wizzbang, I too have spent much time around big rigs. Binding is definitely an issue, especially when the tires will not grow at consistent rates due to mfgr tolerances. I have it on very good authority, that the 25.5 inch tires we are planning to run will in fact be 30+ inches in diameter at 400, that's about a 15% growth!

Loss of traction and the shock loads that it produce will be huge, not unlike tire chatter on a 1/4 mile drag vehicle. Tire chatter will identify weak links in a hurry. As for locking in the splitter, drive a 4wd locked up on dry pavement, it only takes one good turn to realize the amount of stress you are putting on the drive line from binding.

It has become apparent through the design process, that 400+mph is hard. Not just from an aero standpoint, but from an equipment survivability standpoint as well. The forces involved are amazing, trying to use existing equipment is definitely going to be a challenge.
I almost never wake up cranky, I usually just let her sleep in.

Offline bbarn

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2010, 11:31:16 AM »
"...In the trucks there are 3, one in each rear end and one separating the input power between the two (called the power divider). The power divider is essential to proper operation because it allows the axle differentials to spin a slightly different speeds without binding up the drive train. Another relatively common failure that we see in the shop is when a driver locks in the power divider and takes off down the road. It usually burns up the diff or overheats and shatters the power divider in about 50-100 miles at highway speeds..."

Now I know what happened to our semi tractor.  Our lamebrain driver no doubt left the power divider locked when he drove down the road (on a 400-mile each way) trip -- and that's why the only way the truck will move now is when locked "in" -- otherwise the drive shaft just spins happily, all content because it's not delivering any power to a drive wheel.  Yep - your analysis of what might happen -- happens.

SSS, I once planned on putting together a book based on driver responses when these things happen. It is amazing to ask a driver why they have done what they have, the responses can be funny if you can separate the financial loss from the situation. It is equally amazing to hear the reasons why they can't take a particular load, I've heard everything from my dog just had puppies to my truck is parked in front of my house and is on fire! Unfortunately, it was easy to verify that his truck was legitimately on fire...
I almost never wake up cranky, I usually just let her sleep in.

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2010, 11:45:03 AM »
By the rest of the way -- it was the same driver that drove home on a trip with one of the drive tires gone flat and just flopping around on the rim.  No call to me, no call to a service shop -- just drove on it.  I was amazed that the DOT didn't stop and chat with him. 

He doesn't work for me any longer, that's for sure.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline SPARKY

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2010, 11:49:07 AM »
There you guys go---picking on the poor old driver---the next thing you know you will want to put a data logger in there so that you can in the words of DD, " RECORD what actualy went on not what the Monkey is telling you!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

McRat

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2010, 12:09:37 PM »
Probably of no help, but I've done a lot of racing with a locked transfer case (both drive diffs get fed same RPM), and individually locked diffs, both on the asphalt and dirt, up to and past the limits of traction.  Not at BV since it's forbidden, but dragstrips and dirt pulls, drags.

You can lock the transfer case (center) with no problems.  Turning radius is affected, so it's best for straights, you might want to unlock it after the pass for easy manuevering, but you can still force it to turn.  If you also lock both axles too, it is nearly impossible to turn on either dirt or asphalt, and you WILL need to unlock to move other than in a straight line.  You can still steer enough to race that way on asphalt or dirt, it's getting back to the return road that will be nearly impossible.

Yes, you can run the 1/4mi with all four wheels locked.  The car stays pointed straight even if all tires are spinning, but it's path looks like a bowling ball path.  It hooks to the left and drifts back to center the faster you go.

If you have a tote trailer, no problem.  If you are going to try and manuever it back to the pits, you will need a way to unlock.  I'd certainly leave the front axle open, as it really doesn't improve traction significantly.  Keep in mind that if both axles are "open", you still get the poor turning radius if you have a locked Tcase (center section?).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 12:39:39 PM by McRat »

Offline SPARKY

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2010, 12:27:52 PM »
The power divider is also called an inter axel differiental


TORSENs ??
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 03:22:30 PM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline dw230

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2010, 02:33:04 PM »
Looking at the other end of the concept you may find that the tandum front wheels are the wrong design. All the cars I am familiar with that had that setup have crashed, original Flatfire, Manual Torres flathead streamliner(put the driver in a wheelchair for the remainder of his life), etc.

You need to design the front with the wheels offset ala Costella Neb III, Teague, Main and others. The tandum layout will not give the Ackerman effect needed to make even small steering corrections. The tandum layout tends to lift the outside tire and by effect the chassis instead of turning as you would expect.

The driver in the extreme front in a lay down position may result in driveablity issues.

You need Ackerman, scrub and the driver's head above his/her hips to be successful.

DW
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Offline SPARKY

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2010, 03:24:24 PM »
Tandem?
 DW are you refering to side by side or inline?
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline Glen

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2010, 05:19:16 PM »
Inline Sparky
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Offline dw230

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2010, 05:30:57 PM »
The drawing shows side by side. I think they should be in-line, slightly off set actually, not on the same center line.

For example check out Speed Demon, Neb III, Al Teague, etc.
DW
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Don't be Karen, be Beth