Author Topic: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner  (Read 27241 times)

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Offline Stan Back

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2009, 01:40:18 PM »
I'm recalling a conversation with an experienced racer at Bonneville about his construction of his first streamliner.  He had to have these tanks, those tanks, more tanks and such.  He got the car almost done and discovered it was 35 feet long.  Started over and built a much better version.  Had teething problems, so no cigar.

Stan,
the roadster man.
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline bbarn

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2009, 02:04:18 PM »
Yep, we're not done fine tuning the design yet, but that 35' isn't far off from our rough calculations. I think the images that are up at the top of this thread are 37' but we already know we can trim some out of the middle.

Based on what we did with the lakester, so far, we have had the engine coolant water to between 180-200F and have yet to make a full out run. It has 35-40 gallons of capacity which starts off with 95% ice 5% water, which may not be enough for a WOT 5 mile run. So for this project, we are assuming a lot more capacity for engine cooling reservoir.

One question we keep tossing around and maybe someone can shed some light on it for us. If the engine compartment is sealed, what kind of heat can we expect? or how much ventilation should we provide into the engine compartment to prevent any issues?
I almost never wake up cranky, I usually just let her sleep in.

Offline SPARKY

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2009, 03:26:32 PM »
A BUNCH---look at the sides of Burklands car----you may be going farther---but will not take as long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I would bet almost the same coolant  maybe just a little more you should be able to lean on it sooner
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 10:25:33 PM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline bbarn

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2009, 03:39:11 PM »
I think we can calculate the ice water to last through the sustained pull, we have room in both volume and weight.

How much engine compartment ventilation do you think we should have?  - airflow - Some, none, lots, doesn't matter... I would like to duct some amount of air into the front of the engine compartment and vent it out the rear either trough louvers on the side (at the mid-plate) or clear out the rear of the car.

I know standing beside the lakester at idle for about a minute without header wrap, you get plenty of heat. I have to assume that running 1,800F EGT at WOT it's going to be substantially more. On the lakester we didn't care as the engine compartment is open to the outside world. On the streamliner, we will be closing the engine compartment in, I would have to assume that we are going to need some amount of airflow through the compartment. :?
I almost never wake up cranky, I usually just let her sleep in.

Offline Glen

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2009, 03:44:18 PM »
FYI  the Vesco Turbinator is 31 feet long with a 228 in wheel base. I think the longest streamline running is Skip Higgenbothems with a 300 in wheel base and a lot of over hang front and rear
Glen
Crew on Turbinator II

South West, Utah

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2009, 10:25:38 PM »
The original design on Page 1 looked goofy at first, but I thought about it for a few days, and it looks like it might work if it is low enough to keep a lot of air out from under the car.   Just for fun, try it in your tests.  Rounding the corners at the rear of the cheese head might help.

Offline bbarn

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2009, 11:13:12 PM »
agreed, we are going to redesign the nose a bit as our inlets are much bigger than we need.
I almost never wake up cranky, I usually just let her sleep in.

Offline bbarn

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2010, 12:01:46 AM »
Design consideration #2. - Let the comments fly...







I almost never wake up cranky, I usually just let her sleep in.

Offline Bville701

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2010, 12:16:34 AM »
Where are you thinking about putting the driver?

I like the concept.   :cheers:
Ryan LeFevers

701 C/GMR - 216.509 MPH El Mirage Record Holder

El Mirage "Dirty 2" Club Member

Offline bbarn

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2010, 12:20:19 AM »
Where are you thinking about putting the driver?

I like the concept.   :cheers:

Driver? Crap, I knew I forgot something!

Seriously, still working out some of the details, but probably just forward of the front wheels in a semi-reclined position. There are still some additional mechanical elements to squeeze in, and we may have to lengthen the fuselage just a bit. Hopefully we can sort the last remaining items out in the next couple of weeks.
I almost never wake up cranky, I usually just let her sleep in.

Offline John Burk

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2010, 01:47:54 AM »
How about using one of these Ebay #290381841916 drop tanks as your body .

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2010, 02:23:08 AM »
Curious to know what the reasoning for the outboard lanyard positioning of the rear wheels outside the body lines. It is true that this wheel positioning will provide a higher lateral stability the increased surface area will also add to the overall frontal area potentially higher coefficient of drag.


The truth is that in this design it would not matter (much) if the front wheels were also at this width and covered in the same fashion. THe surface area as viewed from the front would be the same. The frontal area is the second (other being Cd) of the 2 issues that detrimental to making the vehicle the most efficient that it can possibly be (the constraints of the engine and driver position dictate that the vehicle will have some frontal surface area).  

One thing that the most successful designers did was take the widest necessary internal components (engine and driver) and made everything else as close to this size as possible and no more. Without naming names (rhymes with costella) is a prime example of why a 1300cc vehicle goes as fast as it does. Many people feel it’s the shape of the Nebs that make them fast….I happen to feel it is the unbelievably small frontal area that is the biggest factor for their success (open for debate, but whatever the case they are proven).

-ALSO
(I am not sure about this so take it with a grain of salt……)

With the rear drive wheels being so close together (and therefore dispersing the localized weight between the 4 wheels, unlike a 4 wheel drive vehicle where the front wheels are driven that support 50% or more of the vehicle weight) I feel to get a traction benefit it would be necessary to have a considerably higher amount of weight over these wheels. A weight this much higher to utilizes the traction potential could push the overall COG rearward making the vehicle unstable. A secondary rear end, drive and other components will increase the drive losses and lower whp. (this is just my back yard thinking…..may be waaaaay of base with all of this).

Please don’t think that I am talking poop about things, I surely don’t mean too.
I really like the changes done to the front end. Everything I say is just based on my personal speculation and I am often wrong.

~JH
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline RichFox

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2010, 09:36:25 AM »
I also was interested in the twin screw configuration. I guessed the advantage was in contact patch being doubled. But that could be much more easily accomplished by running tandame wheels in a car with such wide track. But then perhaps frontal area would grow to much. Can you tell me why you are going with the twin rear ends? Have you considered a Gilmer belt drive for the trailing axle? I am going to go back and reread this from the beginning. I just don't understand it.

Offline bbarn

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2010, 09:36:47 AM »
No problem JHN, I am expecting lots of input, as a matter of fact, its the challenging of my ideas and assumptions that will help refine the design.
 
The reason that not all of the internal components are installed is because I am still working out the CG. I am trying to engineer the CG into a forward location so that the vehicle remains stable without having to add weight or come up with some other post-build fix. I think it is worth the extra time up front to plan on having the car set-up with CG and CP where they are optimum, that way we aren't forced to put some inefficient aerodynamic band-aide on or load lead into the car to correct some issue.

I am a little less concerned with the frontal area than I am with the wetted area and the ability to retain a highly laminar flow. You are spot on in your statements, the driver and the engine dictate that it must be a certain size. I've thought about everything from an in-line 8 and having the driver lay on his side to reduce the width, but none of it seems safe or practical. Oddly enough, you only hear about frontal area in automotive circles. I've seen some pretty large frontal areas on many aircraft that zip right along at some rather high speeds (see reference photo). (I've also seen what their gas bill is to accomplish it, of course, weighing 1.3M pounds has a pretty big effect on fuel consumption too.) I think it is more important to use highly efficient overall shapes and limit any disturbance of the air. Any air that is disturbed, needs to be controlled or shaped as much as possible to eliminate drag.

(Ref pic 1.0)


The outboard position of the rear wheels came from trying to add stability to the design and to incorporate a wing for down force. Theoretically, we haven't added twice as much drag (x2 wheel fairings), but rather only one. I was going to blade the aft portion of the fuselage, but I don't think we need to. The whole idea of putting a blade tail on the rear is to provide stability in yaw, much like the vertical stabilizer on aircraft, and it moves the CP aft. In this proposed configuration, we have the mechanical stability of a wider stance and the aero stability of two vertical stabilizers. One of the questions this raises for me is what happens when the CP is in the same plane as the CG in the z-axis? When a vertical stabilizer is used, it moves the CP aft, it also raises the CP higher than the CG, I am sure that has some effect I just don't know how much yet.

Down force - flat vs round bottom: This debate will probably rage forever, I haven't yet pitched my tent in a camp, but I am leaning a bit. I get the aero advantage of preventing airflow under a car. There are all kinds of proven examples out there from street cars to Indy cars and even LSR cars. The problem that I see with it is that you really have to be diligent to maintain a lack of flow under the car to maintain down force. Any change in the flow under the vehicle will affect its ability to generate down force. I also get concerned about cross winds and heaven forbid the car get a little sideways. The flow under the car from being sideways (not even 90 degrees, but some amount of sideways) will negate it's ability to generate down force. Expect to not have flow under the car and maintain that, and then what do you do when the unexpected happens?

My approach is that rather than control the variables, just eliminate or reduce the number of variables. I know that a wing works to generate lift, we've all seen it many times. I also know that you can introduce some really wild angle of incidence and still maintain good lift, so if the car gets a bit sideways, a wing is still effective. The other benefit to a wing for down force vs. flat bottom generated down force is that it is easier to control. Let's say that a flat bottom generates 5,000 pounds of down force at 400 mph and I have a wing that can generate the same down force at 400. Now, lets assume that I only need 2,000 pounds of down force to prevent wheel slip, any more than 2,000# is just generating useless drag. How do you control dumping the excess down force from a flat bottom? With a wing, you either decrease the angle of attack or retract the flaps and you can easily lower the down force in a controlled and precise manner.

I am not planning on using just physical weight to provide traction to the rear wheels, but rather aerodynamically generated down force to control traction. I want to put the CG where it needs to be for stability, then use aero to push the tires into the Earth. This will give us the benefit of having a lighter vehicle, a more stable vehicle because we have the CG where it should be and controllable traction for the rear wheels.

I would love to see 1/4 mile speeds in the 350+ range. To accomplish this, I would like to build a light car, very light. A light car can accelerate much quicker than a heavy one (I know, that was obvious), lack of weight obviously reduces the traction as well. There is going to be fine line that needs followed as aero down force can only be generated at certain speeds whereas weight is weight (for traction purposes). I would rather make the car light and use the aero to provide down force over the rear axles rather than move the CG aft to provide traction. I don't yet have enough data available to provide definitive proof of this concept, once we get more finalized in the design, I can determine the accuracy of this assumption.

Don't hesitate to challenge the concepts, I look forward to defending my ideas. Just remember, I have the right to disagree with others as much as they disagree with me! Challenges don't have to be adversarial, hurtful or mean, they can be spirited and respectful and at the same time very beneficial to a successful outcome.    
I almost never wake up cranky, I usually just let her sleep in.

Offline bbarn

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Re: BBarn and Robfreys A/BG liner
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2010, 09:44:37 AM »
I also was interested in the twin screw configuration. I guessed the advantage was in contact patch being doubled. But that could be much more easily accomplished by running tandame wheels in a car with such wide track. But then perhaps frontal area would grow to much. Can you tell me why you are going with the twin rear ends? Have you considered a Gilmer belt drive for the trailing axle? I am going to go back and reread this from the beginning. I just don't understand it.

There are a couple of advantages: First, we are cutting the torque forces in half, let's assume we are generating 1800# of torque. If we put that through a single diff, that diff has to be capable of handling 1800fp. If we run that same through two diffs, each one needs to be capable of handling 900fp, thereby reducing the stress on the components. As well, we are doubling the contact area for traction, one of the unknowns here is how much traction loss will there be on the aft wheels from loose salt thrown up from the front drive wheels. Using tandem axles reduces the radial loads on the tires and provides some redundancy. I suspect that if a forward tire were to give out, it would more than likely take the aft one with it (depending on how it failed), so redundancy is a little less of a benefit. Also, see my other post about the axle fairing and down force generation.

I am not familiar with the Gilmer belt drive, is it capable of 7,000-9,000 rpm?
I almost never wake up cranky, I usually just let her sleep in.