Author Topic: Nutty idea???  (Read 9686 times)

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Offline sockjohn

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2009, 10:36:42 PM »
I think you might have better luck driving it with a high speed electric motor than a belt due to the rpm's your talking about.

The verbiage on SCTA superchargers and turbochargers is somewhat limiting IMHO, and might cause issues.

Offline desotoman

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2009, 11:28:48 PM »
Jonny,

Since most exhaust gases go out under pressure, I don't know if the HP required to drive the turbo would offset the power gained if any. Would not be legal in NA classes.

Tom G.
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2009, 11:47:53 PM »
I think you might have better luck driving it with a high speed electric motor than a belt due to the rpm's your talking about.

Hmmm . . . more to ponder . . . Thinking out loud here


Interesting thought, but if Rex is right, you need 100,000 RPM. 

1. Is there a 12 (or 24) volt electric motor that will turn 100,000 RPM with enough power to stay sufficiently ahead of the exhaust discharge to be of assistance in overcoming pumping loss, evacuating the cylinder during valve overlap and promote filling of the intake charge?  I genuinely don't know.

2. If so, what kind of amperage would such a motor draw?

3. Driving the turbine directly, how would someone insulate such a motor from the exhaust?  I suspect direct drive would take heat right off of the impeller straight to the armature and windings.  A belt might act to insulate the motor.




 

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McRat

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2009, 11:54:17 PM »
OK, the goal is to first "suck" out the spent gases, then to push back into the port.  During the overlap phase, should the TurboSuck work, it will draw some of the intake charge out, reducing the density.  Whereas a well designed exhaust header will pressurize it slightly.  Or maybe not.

Offline bbarn

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2009, 12:29:06 AM »
I think there would be a much larger issue than just running an electric motor at 100,000 rpm. The issue is going to be regulating the RPM of the electric motor through the entire RPM range of the engine. You can't just make a huge vacuum at a static 100,000 RPMs at idle and at WOT and not expect VE to be effected adversely. Not to poo-poo the idea, but I think that the complexity of basically of a turbine powered, externally driven pump used to create a vacuum in the exhaust flow is way too complicated.

If you were wanting to create a vacuum in the exhaust that will pull in additional air through the intake, a simple designed veturi in the exhaust plumbing powered by an "afterburner" type setup would be a much more simplistic approach. It would have at least three benefits:

  • It would not rob any additional power from the engine.
  • It would be driven from fuel already carried on board
  • It would look cool spouting flames out the exhaust on a run!!!

I would be surprised if the actual gain in power or flow would be worth the effort.

In the words of the great Dennis Miller: but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 12:30:37 AM by bbarn »
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2009, 11:58:24 AM »
I got a better idea . . .

Rig the steering to turn the car directly into the wind, thus harnessing the headwind to supercharge the mixture.  But, then again, it might not overcome the aero disadvantage.  Could be hard to get a timing slip with all the changes of direction.  That's it, use a roadster!  This may take some more work.

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Offline DallasV

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2009, 12:11:46 PM »
There was a car running many years back that used N2O to cool the turbo. The car ran on gas and the N2O never entered the motor. because there was N2O on board the car was required to run in the fuel class. I would assume that having the turbo on the car weather being used for forced induction or not the powers to be would put it in the blown class. Just a guess.
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Offline robfrey

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2009, 12:21:38 PM »
There was a car running many years back that used N2O to cool the turbo. The car ran on gas and the N2O never entered the motor. because there was N2O on board the car was required to run in the fuel class. I would assume that having the turbo on the car weather being used for forced induction or not the powers to be would put it in the blown class. Just a guess.

Probably could have got away with C02.
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Offline desotoman

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2009, 02:06:40 PM »
There was a car running many years back that used N2O to cool the turbo. The car ran on gas and the N2O never entered the motor. because there was N2O on board the car was required to run in the fuel class. I would assume that having the turbo on the car weather being used for forced induction or not the powers to be would put it in the blown class. Just a guess.

Dallas,

As I recall a few years ago the rule for supercharging was being abused. One or two entries put non functioning blowers on their vehicles to get into the supercharged class. Now to get into that class your supercharger must be functional and put out boost, or you will not be allowed to run in the supercharged class. For what that is worth that is what I remember. LOL

Tom G.
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2009, 03:19:24 PM »
I believe you're fight, Tom.  I usually do.  And I think they'd think the same about suck as they do blow.  (Am I on the right forum?)

Stan
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Offline sockjohn

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2009, 04:30:16 PM »
I think you might have better luck driving it with a high speed electric motor than a belt due to the rpm's your talking about.

Hmmm . . . more to ponder . . . Thinking out loud here


Interesting thought, but if Rex is right, you need 100,000 RPM. 

1. Is there a 12 (or 24) volt electric motor that will turn 100,000 RPM with enough power to stay sufficiently ahead of the exhaust discharge to be of assistance in overcoming pumping loss, evacuating the cylinder during valve overlap and promote filling of the intake charge?  I genuinely don't know.

2. If so, what kind of amperage would such a motor draw?

3. Driving the turbine directly, how would someone insulate such a motor from the exhaust?  I suspect direct drive would take heat right off of the impeller straight to the armature and windings.  A belt might act to insulate the motor.


There are motors that will run that fast, but none that I have seen at 12-24V.  You would probably have to run much higher voltages, but guess you could call the batteries ballast.

Amperage?  I suppose it's possible to calculate from the the turbine how much power would be needed, but not certain how to start that.

Heat on the motor would be a real issue, but running a belt that fast is also.

Dunno, interesting nutty idea for sure though.

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2009, 05:44:06 PM »
A 12v starter motor can drive a centrifugal supercharger into boost for a few minutes with the correct gearing. I do not know an electric motor that can spin at 100K but this would imply a "direct drive" configuration (and this is not realistic, for that matter most of this discussion isnt!) and whose to say you would need 100K RPM, again why not oversize the unit and spin it at 50K with a 10 to 1 gearbox and a 1000 rpm motor.

For argument sake I would still say a mechanically driven geared centrifugal supercharger (such as a paxton, procharger ect) could be used....if they wouldnt melt!
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2009, 07:32:41 PM »
If you were wanting to create a vacuum in the exhaust that will pull in additional air through the intake, a simple designed veturi in the exhaust plumbing powered by an "afterburner" type setup would be a much more simplistic approach.

Okay, let's really get nutty.  What about an inline turbine?
 
Forget the words, "Supercharger", "Turbocharger", "Blower", etc.

We'll call it an active exhaust system. 

Question - Is there enough oxygen in a piston engine's exhaust to mix with fuel and drive a turbine? :roll: 

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Glen

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2009, 07:43:30 PM »
As far as I recall aux. driven  blowers etc. are dis allowed. This came up a few years ago. Something to the effect what happens if the race engine blows and and the Aux. blower or turbo is still turning full speed. It's a safety feature. Run it by the rules committee before you spend the time, engineering and $$$$$
Glen
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Nutty idea???
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2009, 09:02:26 PM »
Hey, Glen -

I suspect that this thread is more an exercise of "what if", and not so much, "let me go grab my wallet and I'll get started".  :-D

And that's all good!
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll: