Author Topic: Rearend camber  (Read 12714 times)

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Re: Rearend camber
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2009, 09:32:55 AM »
Jump on in Robbie.  The waters fine.

Ok, lets call the left tire A and the right tire B. going off the centerline of the car to a point ahead of the car we'll call X.  If A and B are toed out then the intersection of the centerline will be behind the car.  Going forward the imaginary lines go away from the centerline of the car.  It seems to me that this would want to pull the car in two different directions.  With A and  B toed in the imaginary lines cross the centerline X ahead of the car at the same point pushing the car in the same direction.  Which seems to me why toe in would be more stable.  Am I heading in the right direction with this?
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saltfever

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Re: Rearend camber
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2009, 06:42:33 PM »
Great description Count and nice observation. However, I don’t think it is applicable to the issue. If I could only draw with Paint as well as McRat, well  a picture is worth  . . .  :-)

So let’s try an example. If you are an overhead crane operator you will instantly understand. Picture a 3 ton weight hanging from a crane. As you start to move the overhead crane, the mass will lag behind the overhead carriage but eventually start to move forward. When the crane stops the mass will continue on for a bit. This starts a swinging action like a pendulum. To stop the swinging the crane operator watches the swinging mass and as it reaches its maximum swing point and starts back he moves the overhead carriage in the same direction. This dampens the swing and the load will hang vertical. (for illustration only. Swinging a load is dangerous and could lead to termination). Don’t ask me to explain the physics – I can’t. 

We are talking about a car being disturbed for any reason and starting to move the CG from its intended path.  The only forces to stop that movement are, wind, CG mass (one of Newton's laws  :wink:), and tire-to-surface friction. (Would that be called the scrub angle?).  Since we are already misaligned with the course we can assume all three forces are not sufficient to arrest the problem. 

I will use the assumptions already posted in this thread. One rear tire is dominant. I don’t care if it is pointed left or right (toe in or out) but because it is dominant it will drive the rear-end the direction it is pointed. One degree at Bonneville means you are pointing either left or right of Floating Mountain. Just kidding . .  . don’t know exactly.  :-D

When a (zero toe) rear-end starts its deviation the CG also moves in that direction. (Think of the 3 ton mass above) The driver steers into the direction of rear-travel and by moving the front of the car in that direction it dampens out the “swing” of the CG. This allows the tire’s scrub angle to return to normal and assist in recovery through the tire-to-surface interface (friction). Two forces are in your favor.

Now picture either left or right toe. As the rear swings in the direction of the toe (remember it is dominant) the driver will turn the front end in that direction. The toe has already assisted to start the “swing” of the CG and is actually driving the CG away from the center-line. As the driver turns toward the direction of the toe he actually increases the steering angle (the left toe) away from the center line further accelerating the CG away from centerline. The “dampened-pendulum-effect” is all that you have for help because you have worsened the scrub angle at the tire surface. The more you steer into the spin the more you drive the CG away from the cenetr-line. Very bad IMHO.

Sorry for the dissertation. McRat’s skill could have saved 1,000 words.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 06:54:51 PM by saltfever »

saltfever

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Re: Rearend camber
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2009, 05:13:59 AM »
(edited . . ) Ok, lets call the left tire A and the right tire B. going off the centerline of the car to a point ahead of the car we'll call X. . .  With A and  B toed in the imaginary lines cross the centerline X ahead of the car at the same point pushing the car in the same direction. 

In a perfect world, you are right. You have perfectly divided thrust at each wheel, with perfect adhesion, and no crosswind. Its a nice triangle with the CG in the middle being driven in a straight line. I think engineers call that something like a force vector analysis to show everything balances and thrust is through your imaginary point. However, it ain't perfect out there. To simplify take out the spool and use an open diff. (A lot of cars run Bonneville without a spool). Now you have applied almost all thrust through only one side of your triangle. Also, that one-sided thrust is constantly increasing and decreasing due to every condition on the course! To make matters worse, with an open diff, your thrust can be changing from side to side, again depending on traction! So as line A thrust overwhelms line B thrust, what will be the tendency! Doesn't sound stable to me. If you install a spool you have perfectly divided torque to each side but not equally divided thrust. Thrust is the application of torque to the ground interface. For too many reasons to list here, traction will not be exactly equal on both sides of the car! So even with a spool you have the problem of unequal thrust along your A or B vectors. Even with no toe-in you still have the problem of unequal thrust. That is why dragsters narrowed their rear ends. By bringing the wheels closer to the centerline you decrease (but don't eliminate) the offset thrust angle. YMMV and IMHO  :-D
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 04:18:29 PM by saltfever »