Author Topic: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question  (Read 11512 times)

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McRat

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2009, 12:08:22 PM »
Put a Busa engine in it.   :-D

Offline Grant Borman

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2009, 12:21:31 PM »
I could but im a horrible lier.  I might ask if the other version of my motor that has a 6mm higher deck height and larger siamised bore would count as an engine swap. Its like the 400 sbc is to the 350 sbc.

Offline Grant Borman

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2009, 12:23:07 PM »
Put a Busa engine in it.   :-D

Lol that seems to be the rage now a days.  I think i'd rather destroke a honda motor if i went that far.

Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2009, 12:36:50 PM »
Put a Busa engine in it.   :-D

Put a Duramax diesel in it.
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

McRat

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2009, 01:17:46 PM »
 :-D

While it would be a fun project, there are no suitable classes for diesel-powered cars other than streamliners.  They cannot make HP that is competitive in supercharged classes.  It's an RPM thingy.  While a diesel can be made to outperform a similiar sized blown gas engine at 3000rpm, the gas engines win by default due to RPM.  Diesel fuel burns too slowly to make max power at high RPM.

All modern diesels are blown, and the ones that aren't, are not capable of making significant HP/ci.  To the best of my knowledge, no diesel-powered vehicle is competitive in LSR against a similiar gasoline vehicle, unless you count fuel mileage, or the ability run 75psi boost using $3/gallon fuel.  Yes, Team Audi has done miracles with their roadrace program, but that is neither pump diesel, nor is it a production-based engine.


Offline Grant Borman

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2009, 02:12:23 PM »
I thought the reason diesel is not a good race fuel is because it has such a low octane raiting which runs better as a compression ignition motor? Since it is a CI motor the reciprocating weight keeps the rpm's down which in turn caps the HP.  Nothing to say about the injectors! 

How much HP are the AA class vehicles making?  How large of a diesel motor do you need to make that kind of power?  :evil:

Offline jb2

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2009, 02:42:14 PM »
I could but im a horrible lier.  I might ask if the other version of my motor that has a 6mm higher deck height and larger siamised bore would count as an engine swap. Its like the 400 sbc is to the 350 sbc.


I believe same motor:
Same manufacturer
Same cylinder layout
Same induction

McRat

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2009, 02:49:44 PM »
Diesel fuel is rated in Cetane as opposed to Octane, and it can be thought of as how fast the fuel can burn.  Diesel fuel is injected during the compression cycle of the engine once the air gets hot enough from the compression.  "Compression Ignition" is not an accurate description, since it does not ignite based on compression.  Hot air ignition would be a more descriptive term.  There is no throttle on a diesel since that would restrict the amount of air in the cylinder and it would not get hot enough to light the fuel.  Unlike a normal gas engine, diesel fuel is injected over a span time at just the right time.  Our "timing" is similiar to gas ignition, but it's the injection start time instead, and we have "duration" and "pressure" involved.   One strange quirk is that you advance your timing as boost goes up with a turbo diesel, instead of retarding it.

The problem occurs because liquids do not burn, only gases do, and diesel fuel evaporates much slower than gasoline.  The energy that is required to vaporize the diesel fuel cools down the air, so if you spray it in too quickly or early, it will not light immediately (pinging) or at all (bursting).  At high RPM's you cannot spray the fuel in early enough without putting out the fire.  High cetane fuels can help move that point up, but 8000 rpm peak power is just a dream with liquid fuel direct injection.  The $$$ Audi only spins to 6000rpm IIRC, where it's gasoline competitors are over 10,000rpm.

There is a AA/DT Ford full-sized diesel pickup that ran a ~1200ci Detroit super&turbocharged marine engine.  It ran ~202 at Bonneville, and 160 at Elmo.  I would say it was about 1200hp?


McRat

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2009, 02:52:23 PM »
PS - Be careful of saying Diesel around me.  I will yap-yap-yap till someone tells me to shut up. :-D 

Offline Grant Borman

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2009, 03:15:48 PM »
I could but im a horrible lier.  I might ask if the other version of my motor that has a 6mm higher deck height and larger siamised bore would count as an engine swap. Its like the 400 sbc is to the 350 sbc.


I believe same motor:
Same manufacturer
Same cylinder layout
Same induction

Yea this is tricky, i will definitely have to sent them another message in the next few days. The motor im thinking about is N/A, and i can get it from a Hyundai.

Offline RansomT

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2009, 03:33:09 PM »
I got this from the SCTA.

If I understand you correctly, the car came from the factory with a turbo.
The Gas Coupe and Sedan class is for vehicles that did not come with turbos
from the factory. Turbo cars run in 5.E.2 page 56 Production Supercharged.

Mike Manghelli

Kinda wanted to start with something more achievable then move up to G/BFA but i guess i will start there.

This is exactly how it was explained to me when I was trying to find a "home" class for my blown Taurus SHO for the ECTA.  Other than Forced Induction, it would be production.  You have to think of it this way, "what prevents a vehicle from being in the lower class?"   However, I do believe if you look hard enough you may find a couple of records in BGC with vehicles that came FI from the factory.....

McRat

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2009, 03:38:27 PM »
But the problem lies in the Golden Rule of Racing:  Just because someone else got away with it, doesn't mean you will too.  I think it's worded differently in the SCTA rulebook, but the meaning is the same.

Offline Dreamweaver

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2009, 03:45:00 PM »
Contributing to thread drift...Seems the B/GS and B/DS records are near the same.

McRat

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Re: "Non Stock Supercharger" rule question
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2009, 03:55:42 PM »
DS rules allow supercharging, and there are no fuel restrictions.  So it's like BFS.  You can run nitrous, propane, CNG, race diesel, 2CHN, etc.  DT and MDT limit you to pump diesel.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 03:57:20 PM by McRat »