Author Topic: Tires  (Read 37518 times)

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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Tires
« Reply #90 on: February 06, 2010, 09:49:39 PM »
If you ever happen to see one of the 80-90s Jack Roush Trans Am cars you will see an interesting mounting for a Watt link. Doing the normal mounting with the pivot link in a vertical plane make lowering the roll center difficult so Roush mounted the pivot link in the horizontal plane and connected it to the bottom of the diff housing. As the Roush cars won quite a few championships and the Daytona 24 Hours probably 6 or 7 times it probably works.


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Offline maguromic

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Re: Tires
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2010, 01:02:31 AM »
Roush built our IMSA GTO car (only Thunderbird), which had that set up.  I remember when I asked Bob Riley about why it was different than the previous cars we had, he said that it helped lower the roll center.  I know that car handled like it was on rails and we finished the year within a heartbeat of the GTO championship.  If I can find a picture of the setup I will add it later.  Tony
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 01:06:36 AM by maguromic »
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Offline johnneilson

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Re: Tires
« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2010, 12:05:44 PM »
It is not uncommon to find a watts link horizontal and uner the diff on a live axle road race car.
What is not seen too often is a 3rd spring on the live axle that counters the normal springs for quicker transition.

In '05, one of the Rocket Sports cars won the SCCA RunOffs in GT1. This car had a top link that went through the car to just behind the shifter. It had a verticle adjustment to tune the IC/CoG while in motion.

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Offline John Burk

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Re: Tires
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2010, 03:13:04 PM »

"In '05, one of the Rocket Sports cars won the SCCA RunOffs in GT1. This car had a top link that went through the car to just behind the shifter. It had a verticle adjustment to tune the IC/CoG while in motion"

John
Is that the single offset torque arm that lets driveshaft torque cancel the effect of axle torque you are referring to ?

Offline johnneilson

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Re: Tires
« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2010, 05:20:41 PM »
John,

yes, it was the top link from the rearend.
It had a slider assy with a jacking screw down the center.

John
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Offline robfrey

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Re: Tires
« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2010, 07:32:54 PM »
The more I think about it the more I still like my concept. As far as know, I'm the first to make the bottom arms also be the track locator and the anti roll bar. The simplicity of the design and compactness are it's biggest assets. I think the biggest problem is that I'm using adjustable spherical rod ends. I'm thinking on building billet ends with needle bearings that can be welded to the 4140 tubing. It only needs to move in one axis so there is really no reason to be using a spherical rod end. This would eliminate the problem of side loading the 5/8" minor diam. of the the threaded rod end.
When you think about it, it's really not that different than a quad's rear suspension. I have not heard of very many of them breaking.
You guys keep talking about lowering the roll center. Lower isn't always better. Front roll center. center of gravity, front and rear spring rates and many other factors go into that decision. In a road race situation, it's not about getting the car neutral handling as it is getting the car to have neutral handling no matter what the traction level (wet / dry /dirty, etc).
I chose a low roll center as my spring rates are way up there. Straight line stuff like what we do, I don't believe it to be super critical. Maybe on a roadster but not a long wheel base car like a lakester or streamliner

Interested bystander- I would like to see  four times safety margin in my designs. I only see about a two times safety margin at it's worst point. Your design is not quite like mine. If I could ask you a favor, please move the front crossbar rearward about 2" onto the "X" itself and rerun the FEA. Might be better? Might be worse?

I still think the lakester will start the dreaded pencil roll long before we have any breakage problems but maybe I'm wrong. I've driven this car, the driver has no business ever getting this thing that sideways especially after we add the new body work and vertical stablilizer.
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Offline Interested Observer

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Re: Tires
« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2010, 05:52:05 PM »
Results of a rerun with the front cross member moved 2” aft are below, and as would be expected, there is very little difference from the original model.  Note that there are now two new elements, 22 and 23 between the cross member and the center, and 14 and 15 are now short, going from the cross member to the forward pivots.  Again, these results would not properly take into account the local geometrical stress concentrations at the tubular junctions.  Also not forgetting that the pivot bearings at the axle have essentially the same loading problems as those at the front.

Also recalling that these results are from only a single load case that was perhaps reasonable, but chosen  completely arbitrarily.

Fabbing out of 4140 would be even more ticklish than 4130, and should take cognizance of appropriate preheat and interpass temperatures, filler material, stress relief and/or post-weld heat treatment, then weld NDE inspection.

In lieu of needle bearings that would need some sort of thrust bearing as well, and may not especially like the salt with out being sealed and lubed, one might consider a plain spherical bearing, similar to the original rod ends but without being mounted on an extended shank.   http://www.rbcbearings.com/sphericalplainbearings/index.htm       (or similar).


BOTH FRONT JOINTS RESTRAINED
ELEM    VMX   (psi) 
       1   35159.   
       2   39766.   
       3       665   
       4       665   
       5   39729.   
       6   31575.   
       7       665   
       8       665   
       9     9514   
      10       462   
      11     8846   
      12       462   
      13     9679   
      14   13566.   
      15   13883.   
      16   28866.   
      17   29958.   
      22   24816.   
      23   23647.   

 MINIMUM VALUES
 ELEM         10
 VALUE    462.15   

 MAXIMUM VALUES
 ELEM          2
 VALUE    39766.   


ONLY RIGHT SIDE JOINT RESTRAINED
ELEM    VMX   (psi) 
       1   17567.   
       2   52369.   
       3       669
       4       669
       5   67263.   
       6   20856.   
       7       669
       8       669
       9     9067
      10       465
      11   10524.   
      12       465
      13   10197.   
      14   12717.   
      15   17528.   
      16   27944.   
      17   30404.   
      22   25192.   
      23   22923.   

 MINIMUM VALUES
 ELEM         10
 VALUE    465.08   

 MAXIMUM VALUES
 ELEM          5
 VALUE    67263.   

Offline robfrey

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Re: Tires
« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2010, 09:50:52 PM »
Interested Observer- Thank you very much! I do like that choice of bearing. its is very simple and should work well.
The lower number at point 5 is a little encouraging but I think I would still like to change it.  Sorry about the confusion about the moly number and yes, it looks like I do want the 4130. I have used 4140 for other suspension parts like sway bars as they heat treat well.

Thanks for the input.

Rob
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Offline interested bystander

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Re: Tires
« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2010, 10:07:49 PM »
Robfrey, don't confuse me, Interested BYSTANDER, with the above Interested Observer (even though I use that Nom de Plume on another semi-related board).

I.O's textbook calculations above are Very informative, but way beyond the grasp of more than 99% of the Landracing crew -even GLEN.

All this could be worded in laymens words and the numerical differences could be put in a form that indicates whether one would be A. Majorly in danger of a catastrophe, B. possibly in danger, or C. slightly, or . . .well it ain't the way Netwton and the phyics tecbooks woulda done it but it's aceeptable considering the narrow requirements of Landspeed racing. Something like that. More informative. Like Willie always trys to do.

And of course, since our pal Obama has finally gotten around to asking the Rebulicans "How'd you  do things?" Maybe we could ask Interested Observer how he'd do it.
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Tires
« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2010, 11:14:33 AM »
Interested Observer,
I find your stress levels very interesting and after reviewing your numbers I can only believe that these are stresses that are generated at the welded joints of where the X member is welded to the fore and aft locator tubes. Is this what you are telling us?? If you looked at this structure as having pinned joints, i.e. unable to transmit bending moment in any axis (which would be the case if the X member were connected via rod ends) then the stresses in the tubes become nothing more than vector proportions of what the imposed side load is.

Please dilute our ignorance a little more on specifically where these high stresses occur on the structure its self.

Thanks,
Rex
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Offline Interested Observer

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Re: Tires
« Reply #100 on: February 09, 2010, 10:13:28 PM »
My original intent was to give Rob a cautionary “heads-up” on a situation that he may not have been particularly aware of or have thoroughly investigated, and that could possibly have significant consequences.   To illustrate how quickly the stress in the Heim joint shank can rise when it is subjected to bending loads, the FEA model was done with roughly his geometry and a single, plausible, load case.  It seems to have achieved that end. 

Since the focus was on the shanks, the details of the rest of the structure were of secondary importance, although the results do give an indication of the stresses in the other members.  Without writing a treatise on FEA or structural analysis, the following may help in understanding what was done and what these results indicate. 

Using static force analysis and the theory of elasticity, classical engineering equations allow one to calculate the stresses and deflections of simple structures by hand.  For instance:  if one had a cantilever beam projecting from a wall with a weight hanging from the end, the nature of the loads at the wall end and the resulting stresses can be easily calculated.  As is intuitive, at the top of the beam there would be tensile stress and at the bottom there would be compressive stress.  If one grabbed the beam at the end and pulled away from the wall, the resulting stress would be uniform tensile stress across the beam cross-section.  If the end of the beam was twisted about its axis, the stresses at the wall would be more complicated, but can be calculated.  Each of these loads will create a stress component at any location in the cross-section and if all three loads were applied the net result would be the (vector) sum of their contributions at each location across the cross-section of the beam.

In the same way, the stress components at the mid-point of the beam could be calculated, or at any intermediate point along the length.  The beam could be thought of as a series of short beams all connected end-to-end.  If the calculations were done, the distribution of stress all along the length and across the the section of the beam would be known. 

If we were to analyze the beam using FEA, we would do essentially the same thing.  An FEA model is composed of “elements”, which “model” a section of beam, and in this case assume the beam is of uniform cross-section.  The endpoints of the beam section are defined by “nodes” located in space.  If we are not all that interested in the stress results along the length of the beam the model could consist of a node at the wall, another at the other end, and a single “element” in between.  This model would use the appropriate equations to calculate the stresses in the same manner as would have been done manually above. 

If we were interested in how the stresses varied along the length of the beam, we would have to create a model that consisted of a whole series of nodes with an element between each.  The calculated results would then give the stresses at each end of each element along the length of the “beam”.  This requires solving a lot of simultaneous equations which, fortunately, computers are reasonably adept at.

In general, the stress state at one end of an element may be different from that at the other end.  In the simple single-element beam above with the weight and axial tension load, the stress at the outboard end would be the nominal tensile stress from the tensile load, but the end at the wall would be a combination of the tensile load stress as well as the bending stress caused by the outboard weight.

An FEA program calculates and stores the various components of stress at each location, generally tied to the direction in which they act within the element.  This can often result in a lot of information that is difficult to interpret or relate to the ability of the material used to withstand the load.  Fortunately, for steel and many other ductile materials, the stress components can be mathematically combined into a single net stress that can be compared directly to the strength of the material.  One of these is the von Mises (or various other names) stress.  If desired, FEA programs also will make this combination calculation and present that stress as a result for the element.

So, to bring this together as regards the suspension model, in the interests of simplicity, it was made of single element members, since the details of what was going on within the members was not of particular interest--just the magnitude of the greatest stresses of the particular member.  Thus, the maximum von Mises stresses were tabulated for each element.  For the Heim joint shanks, the maximum can intuitively be assigned to the end where the bending load is maximum, at its juncture with the link to which it is attached.  (This is confirmed by looking at the more obscure results of the analysis.)  To summarize, the tabulated results are an effective net stress that can be compared to the material strength for that member, given the arbitrary load  situation analyzed, and in the absence of geometrical stress concentrations.

Stress concentrations --- 
As described above, the elements used in the analysis assume uniform cross sections.  If the size, shape, or configuration of the adjoining member is not a continuation of the one in question, a degree of stress concentration will occur due to a mis-match of the stiffnesses of the two elements.  The model is, in effect, an idealization consisting of “perfect” connections between the members.  At the welded joints of the tubulars, clearly the member cross-section is disrupted and stresses will be re-distributed depending on the nature of the loads and material configuration at that location.  To answer Rex’s question, no, the tabulated stresses do not take into account the variations that will occur at the welded joints of the X frame.  Those were not the goal of the exercise, although considerably more elaborate modelling of the junctions would give accurate indication of what is going on there.  However, the given results for the members in conjunction with various stress concentration factors historically developed for similar joints would give a fair indication of what could be expected.

For the Heim joint shank, a smooth 5/8” diameter cylinder was assumed as an approximation of the root diameter of an assumed 3/4” OD thread, but due to the sharp root of the thread that reduction may not fully compensate.


The attached two plots may partially address the stress distribution question that Rex was sort of fishing for.  The VM0 plot shows the stress magnitude on the top of the members, and so is largely driven by the bending loads in the vertical direction.  As would be expected, the vertical bending induced in the trailing elements of the X by the “rolling” moment from the offset (lower) lateral load applied to the “axle” predominate. (That is, the X is being twisted by the axle.)  This plot shows the stress magnitude by the offset from the normal element line, and the color code.  It is basically the result at each end of the element, with the middle portion merely being interpolated from either end.  Also notable is that the stress at the top of the element in the right side Heim is fairly nominal. 

The second plot, VM90, shows the stresses in the horizontal plane, on the side of the elements, which are largely the result of the lateral load itself.  As can be seen, the stress due to this is rather low in the X since its members are acting substantially by carrying longitudinal, not bending loads.  Also note that the front right Heim is showing high stress at its base due to its carrying substantial bending loads.

_______________________

As regards Interested Bystander’s desire to more simply categorize the potential severity of the consequences--that is pretty much up to who is designing/building/driving the thing.  And again, the stress situation discussed is for an approximation of a contingency situation.  What one is willing to accept may be different if you are going to the moon or to Floating Mountain.

Rex’s discussion of all-pinned-joints sounds similar to the “N” braced version mentioned a number of posts back.  Although, it would have to be an N, not an X.  Any roll-axis motion would induce bending in the X (as in VM0 above.)

And if IO was going to do it, as alluded to earlier, he would opt to separate the functions for tunability and sanity, and eliminate bending wherever possible.

Offline robfrey

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Re: Tires
« Reply #101 on: February 09, 2010, 11:09:34 PM »
I will need to reread this after a good night sleep. LOL! A couple of times.
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Tires
« Reply #102 on: February 10, 2010, 12:51:34 AM »
IO,
Thank you for providing the stress level graphics which so well illustrate the areas of maximum stress and are probaby most helpful in potentially designing a structure to carry the imposed loads. It is interesting that the maximum stresses are from the loading  in which the X structure is trying to act as a anti roll bar, for which it is not well designed to do. I agree with you completely that each of the suspension loads should be addressed by an individual part to carry that specific load, i.e. an anti roll bar for the roll moment, a multi link to locate the axle longitudinally and some sort of watt link, panard rod etc to locate it laterally. The X member that Rob has selected does a number of these functions but as your numbers and illustrations show it  maybe not be doing them very well and there may be some potential that they may extremely highly stressed under heavy loading.

Thanks again for "diluting my ignorance" on your analysis. Well done.

Rex
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Offline robfrey

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Re: Tires
« Reply #103 on: February 10, 2010, 12:14:46 PM »
What I have built here is just a slight variation of swing axle promod suspension that has been well tested over many years with as far as I know, has never been a failure.
The "N" has been known to fail on several occasions in the drag racing world. If the "N" design has never failed on the salt then I have even more confidence that I'm okay with what I have as there is less traction on the salt. I think I would like to change the rod ends but overall, I think it's good. It's very simple, compact and the bottom line is that it works.

My 92 Saturn's front sway bar was also fore / aft spindle locator. It was fine even with it's giant rubber biscuits at the attachment points. I believe Saturn stole that design from someone but I can't remember who.
The rear locating arms on my 2004 Saturn ion (delta chassis) are tied together with a brace to act as a swaybar also.
It's my opinion that it is okay for suspension parts to multitask especially when packaging is a very big concern.
We are just going straight here or least that's the goal.
I didn't design it to go road racing. If I was going road racing, I would want each of these components separate so that I could tune the handling by adjusting them individually.
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Offline Interested Observer

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Re: Tires
« Reply #104 on: February 10, 2010, 12:42:45 PM »
Ref: Rex's comments

One thing I neglected to point out explicitly is that the stress scales in the two most recent plots are not the same.  "Red" in one plot is not the same as "red" in the other--one needs to look at the numbers associated with the color scale.  (If the same scale is used, the high peak stresses of the shank tend to wash out the distribution of the lower stressed elements.) 

Consequently, the highest stresses are not in the X, but in the Heim shank.  These two plots illustrate the approximate locations and relationship of the stresses, but the actual magnitudes would be as tabulated in the earlier results.