Aeromotive Belt driven pump?

[BackwoodsBoy]

On the car I have working the pump is above the 1/2 tank level.

The whole key here is to force the EFI into thinking the motor is just not started yet and not switching into "Run Mode" to quickly.

[jl222]

On the car I have working the pump is above the 1/2 tank level.

The whole key here is to force the EFI into thinking the motor is just not started yet and not switching into "Run Mode" to quickly.

 But at above 1/2 level the pump is below the fuel level and already primed.

[BackwoodsBoy]

Not when there is only a couple of gallons of fuel in the tank.  Fuel level is well below the pump.  At Bonneville was the first time I had tried to fire it with the pump below the level of the fuel.

We just primed it anyway just to be sure.  All it takes is a couple squirts of fuel to get things going that first time.

This pump should be able to suck a golf ball through a garden hose!   It has the highest fuel delivery rating I have seen on a gas/alky pump.  I have seen large diesel pumps with higher but they were for 1000 CID motors.

[jl222]

Not when there is only a couple of gallons of fuel in the tank.  Fuel level is well below the pump.  At Bonneville was the first time I had tried to fire it with the pump below the level of the fuel.

We just primed it anyway just to be sure.  All it takes is a couple squirts of fuel to get things going that first time.

This pump should be able to suck a golf ball through a garden hose!   It has the highest fuel delivery rating I have seen on a gas/alky pump.  I have seen large diesel pumps with higher but they were for 1000 CID motors.

  Are you talking about squirting gas into a roots blower with efi. Gas fuel pumps don't have the fuel volume that alky pumps do and maybe thats the difference.

                      JL222

 

[Brett with Aeromotive]

Hello,

While on a technical call earlier today someone mentioned there was a thread on using the Aeromotive belt/hex driven pumps for EFI on this board, and that maybe I should weigh in on the subject.

Having read through the thread, honestly, the advice is pretty succinct and accurate.  Since I'm here, I thought I'd add my 2 cents.

First, fuel pressure at crank is virtually always lower with a mechanical fuel pump as compared to an electric pump, as has been mentioned, because the pump speed is so slow.  Actual pressure can depend on a variety of elements, including fuel pump drive ratio (drive vs. driven pulley sizes), fuel pump cranking rpm (what type of starter, what voltage battery(ies), wiring, engine cranking compression), etc.

I've worked on small block engines with low compression turbo forced induction, 16V batteries and a non-gear reduction starter that will crank 300-400 rpm and make 40 PSI in the rail.  I've also had big block engines with large camshafts, Enderle style stack EFI and virtually zero PSI cranking pressure. 

In every case, again as has been mentioned by forum members earlier in this thread, proper calibration of the cranking fuel map and other start-up parameters have always resulted in an engine that starts reliably and without the aid of an electric primer pump.

That being said, I see nothing at all wrong with deploying an electric primer pump in the system to facilitate start-up, and eliminate recalibrating the start-up parameters.  If this is done, a couple of ground rules do apply:

1.) Connect the electric pump into the fuel system on the down-stream side of the mechanical pump, anywhere between the mechanical pump outlet port and the regulator (commonly after the fuel rail) works equally well.
2.) Connect the electric pump to the fuel cell directly as apposed to trying to merge it into the mechanical pumps suction or feed line.
3.) Install a one-way check valve on the electric fuel pump outlet port, if not already equipped, to prevent fuel flow leaking by the electric pump once it's turned off (they all will leak without a check valve).

The Aeromotive belt and hex-drive fuel pumps employ a G-Rotor style pumping mechanism, one of the most efficient, reliable pumping mechanisms on the market.  This design is specifically employed over the more common gear and vane type mechanisms because at low speed the efficiency factor equals more flow, delivering higher pressure during crank.

Hope this adds to the discussion.  Anyone with Aeromotive fuel system components that requires technical support, or needs assistance, feel free to call us direct at 913-647-7300  and ask for Brett.

[Peter Jack]

Thanks Brett. It's always a bonus when a manufacturer's rep enters into the fray in a constructive non-selling way.

Pete

[Brett with Aeromotive]

Thanks Brett. It's always a bonus when a manufacturer's rep enters into the fray in a constructive non-selling way.

Pete

Glad I can contribute Pete.

One more thing that I thought to add relative to earlier discussion on fuel cell height relative to pump mounting height.  It is wise if the fuel pump is above the fuel cell to install a one-way check valve on the fuel pump outlet port.  In so doing, once the system is primed, the check valve will eliminate drain-back when the engine is off, making restart much easier after a period of engine-off.

Also, initial start-up of a new fuel system with direct drive fuel pump should include manually priming the fuel rail.  This can be done with a drive mandrel and spare pulley, along with an electric drill.  We suggest going through the following steps:

1.) Crack the line at the fuel pump inlet and, if possible, gravity drain fuel to the pump inlet port.  Light air pressure may be carefully applied to the fuel tank via the vent if the fuel line goes above the fuel tank en route to the fuel pump.  Tighten the hose end once the pump-head is wet.
2.) Crack a line at the regulator, presumably mounted down-stream of the fuel rail, and run the fuel pump by hand or with an electric drill.  Once fuel is at the regulator, snug that line and crack in sequence any remaining lines coming from other fuel rails on the engine following the same procedure.
3.) With all lines securely tight, crank the engine, ignition off, and verify oil and fuel pressure are present and their are no fuel leaks! 
4.) Power the ignition system and light the engine, again inspecting for any sign of fuel leak.
5.) Raise the engine RPM to 2,000-2,500 and, with the vacuum line disconnected from the regulator, set the regulator for the desired, base fuel pressure.

Okay, last note: PLEASE BE CAREFUL WHEN HANDLING FUEL.  Make certain their are no fuel leaks.  Do not store fuel soaked rags in the shop, make certain the shop is well ventilated when handling fuel, obviously no smoking, sparks or open flames.  Zero tolerance here guys and gals, the alternatives are NOT pretty.

Race safely and enjoy the sport!

Brett

[robfrey]

Thanks Brett!!!!!!
Can you give a part number for the check valve that I need on the outlet side of the pump?

[BackwoodsBoy]

We are squirting fuel directly into the Hilborn Injector Hat mounted on a tunnel ram.

I went this way instead of the primming pump system because it was easier to explain this to the owner of the car because he has been doing the priming thing on all of his older mechanical injected cars.  (Hard to teach old dogs new tricks!!!!!)

Applied the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Rule!!!

[Rex Schimmer]

Note Brett's item 5.( 5.) Raise the engine RPM to 2,000-2,500 and, with the vacuum line disconnected from the regulator, set the regulator for the desired, base fuel pressure)

This is an important point if you are running electronic fuel injection.
1. You need to reference the regulator to the manifold pressure. This is especially important if you are super charged or turboed. By referencing the regulator to manifold pressure as the manifold pressure increases the fuel pressure will also go up and the pressure to the injectors will remain the same. Works for normally asperated engines also but the change in fuel pressure is much less.
2.And as Brett has said if you do reference the regulator to the manifold pressure you must disconnect to set the fuel pressure.
3. The reference line should be realitive small, 3/16 works well but connected to the manifold not just one port inlet.

Great advice Brett.

Rex

[robfrey]

I agree with everything sail here by Bret and Rex but I always set my fuel pressure at 44 psi with engine not running. That way it is truly referenced to atmosphere. This is how the injectors are rated and how FAST calculates how the injectors flow. Please correct me on this if I am wrong. I spun the pump with drill and spare belt to energize the pump to set the pressure.

[Brett with Aeromotive]

Rob,

Thanks Brett!!!!!!
Can you give a part number for the check valve that I need on the outlet side of the pump?

P/N 15107 is the check valve you're looking for.

I agree with everything sail here by Bret and Rex but I always set my fuel pressure at 44 psi with engine not running. That way it is truly referenced to atmosphere. This is how the injectors are rated and how FAST calculates how the injectors flow. Please correct me on this if I am wrong. I spun the pump with drill and spare belt to energize the pump to set the pressure.

Setting the fuel pressure by running the pump with a drill is fine too, as long as you have the pump RPM up to roughly 1,000 to 1,500.  Setting the fuel pressure as noted earlier, with the engine running at 2,000-2,500 RPM, but the vacuum/boost line disconnected, is virtually the exact same thing, so either way is suitable.  As far as injector calculations relative to flow rate, it's the true delta P (differential pressure) across the injector that matters, either method eliminates the influence of manifold pressure in order to establish true base.

Brett

[robfrey]

Brett,
Sorry about that, I missed the part of pulling the line of the regulator. My bad.
I will probably order that check valve from my supplier (Jones Racing) sometime within the next couple of days. Thanks for all the help.

[Greg Kelley]

I always recommend a pimer pump. I have plumbed them into the rails and into the plenum. Into the rails is the best as you don't get backfires from air pockets in the rails. Ya gotta have some kind of check valve.

The little pump everyone calls the "Facet" pump (I guess the manufacturer) works with gas or alky


On my car with a Edelbrock fuel solenoid as the check valve


GK

[robfrey]

Hi Greg,
Can you make those pics any bigger?