four banger in V4F

[32vertex]

Hi all,

I allready sent an email to Kiwi Steve on this, but he hasn't been able to reply yet, so here it is: we want to run in V4f class, for which the engine must be a pre 1935 American built production engine up to 220cid. Now here's what I assume what is the reason for the "American-built" part of this requirement is to exclude engines such as the French flathead V8, which are better engines metallurgically, and for their construction. These V8's are thus unfair competition.

We are able to buy a British fourbanger overhere in the Netherlands. Most of the European Model B cars were assembled in Europe (Denmark, UK, Holland), but I do not know if these engines were poured and assembled here or in the US. What I do know is that they construction-wise, so technically, are the same as their US counterparts.

Are they therefore legal to use in V4F class ?

Please advise, so we can buy the right engine, and then pour money and effort in it.

Thanx,

Erwin
Trashers cc

[RichFox]

I have been told that the Russian model B blocks are not legal in V4. I would guess that holds true for UK blocks. Email Roy Creel    cree@antelecom.net    for an answer you can count on.

[32vertex]

Thank you Rich; just to make sure: is it cree@antelecom.net  or is it: creel@antelecom.net ?? I'll put both addresses in.

erwin

[32vertex]

The following recipient(s) could not be reached:

      creel@antelecom.net on 7/27/2009 2:08 PM
            The e-mail system was unable to deliver the message, but did not report a specific reason.  Check the address and try again.  If it still fails, contact your system administrator.
            < mxvs2.esa.t-systems.com #5.0.0 smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'No such user (creel) -ERR creel@antelecom.net Account Does Not Exist' (delivery attempts: 0)>


That's obvious then....

[RichFox]

cree@antelecom.net

[Stan Back]

Cree, as in Cree Automotive.

I believe he's on vacation now and leaving for the salt on the 1st.  You might have a wait before getting a reply (or try again after SW).

Stan

[mtkawboy]

Rich, just curious, whats different about the Russian block ? Is it different , better or just Russian ?

[4-barrel Mike]

Some questions & some opinions (formed with less knowledge than that of many others) here, but no attacks or criticism intended

Were blocks cast in Canada?  Model A's going to Australia & New Zealand were "manufactured" in Canada and shipped out in knocked down form.  If blocks were cast in Canada, how is the SCTA keeping them from being used?  Can the SCTA prove that blocks were cast in Canada or Britain (innocent until proven guilty, right?)?  Perhaps British blocks were shipped from Canada.  If a Canadian (or British) block is functionally the same as an American block, I don't think there should be a problem.

Ford made replacement Model A (and B?) engines and blocks thru the '40s and they made Model A industrial engines even later, I believe.  Are those being excluded?  If so, how are they being distinguished?  (Hint: 10 seconds with a die grinder removes the one distinguishing mark.)

The Russian blocks are almost undoubtedly of poorer quality.

The problem as I see it was the post-war German engines that came in the Ruhr trucks, aka G28T.  These were "improved" primarily with full-pressurization and insert bearings rather than babbit.  I suggest that a fresh G28T block is more expensive than the typically updated A or B block and that nobody with the possible exception of Shug is running unpressurized and on babbit.

Seems to me that policing is a problem, mistakes can be made, mentions of cheating have been made in the past (although I see no advantage in using a block cast after 1934).

But, the rules are the rules and that is what we work with.

Vertex: blocks can be shipped via UPS, but it looks alike about $450 from my west coast address to Europe.  Try contacting Belcher Engineering in England, they might have some insight on the block question.

Good luck.

Mike

[RichFox]

My understanding is that later blocks may be made of better iron or with better internal bracing. Who knows? That's the rule and it's not hard for those of us here in the USA to comply with. In the UK or Low Countries maybe not. I don't use Fords anyway. V4 competitors should think more about MoPars. Good yellow engines like this.

[NathanStewart]

The intent of the rule, in my eyes, is to keep in line with what used to be run back in the old days.  It's a bit of historical authenticity if you will.  I don't think anyone was running European made four banger Fords before or after the war.  But this begs the question: what designates that a block was poured here or over there?  I don't think I've ever seen anyone inspect our engine identification number on our block to verify it was in fact American made.  But does it really matter? As soon as you really start making good power you're going to scatter the bottom end anyways.    

[4-barrel Mike]

That's part of the point that I didn't make.  There is no solid information about where blocks were cast, hence no guidance for the builder or the inspector.  Engine numbers on stamped on the block were often changed when a rebuilt engine was installed.

Digging a little thru Nevins this afternoon, British blocks were cast in Cork, Ireland and machined in England.

Authenticity is in the eye of the beholder.    Did they run 5-main billet Ford cranks?  Or Dodge engines for that matter?   

Seems a shame that the average European has to spend so much buy a legal block, when the British block was probably exactly the same.

Mike

[RichFox]

Yeah maybe is is a shame, but don't forget the name of the organization is Southern California Timing Assn. It was never meant to be everything to everybody. No mater what you do somebody will be unhappy. And the base of the membership is, not surprisingly, in Southern California. And they have lots of old Ford blocks. When I talked with Roy about this issue, he seemed to have a very good handle on how to tell what block was what. Small things that you or I might never see or care about. And I would disagree with "Autenticty is in the eye of the beholder" Just cruise around the Castro section of San Francisco for a little while to prove my point.

[NathanStewart]

Just thinking out loud:

Rules says American made.  Canadians consider themselves Americans too; North Americans.  So if it was originally made in North America and shipped to Europe then a European could quite easily have an American made vintage four banger flathead.  If the UK blocks or Scot blocks are no different than the North American version then how would you ever know the difference? 

And as a BTW side note, off all the four banger Fords us Stewarts have destroyed in the past 10+ years of running them, we've never once had a block failure as a primary cause of engine failure.  It's usually the rods first or the crank flange shears off and then the crank free revs to 7000 rpm and then the rods let go and cut the motor in half.  Don't ask me how i know... 

[32vertex]

Mmm, last words haven't been said on this. I guess I have to wait for an final answer from Roy Creel. IMO we have a point in using the British block, because it is internally the same as its US counterpart, as opposed to the G28-T block, which has seen many extra years in development. I know that the G28-T block was used up until the late fifties in Claas combines, and is a very sought after block for the fourbanger hotrod crowd.

Just curious what rpm's Shug can manage with the babbits ?? I never spoke to him, maybe he was already living in the US before I attended many UK hotrod meets.

[RichFox]

There is a very good chance that no one will care if your engine is US made or not. First you would have to set the record before it would become an issue. I know that is your plan. Then as you point out, it's not glaringly obivious that your engine is from the UK. And generally people just don't care much about that rule. But Roy is the last word.