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Author Topic: "production class" engine in a "special construction class" frame = APS-P?  (Read 5339 times)
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Bruin
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« on: July 08, 2009, 01:40:47 PM »

Would a stock production engine (original carb and headers but with custom intake and final exhaust), powered by gas, in a special construction frame be classed APS-P for BUB AMA?  I saw such a designation in the 2009 rule book (1350cc class) but only one example and want to confirm it.

Also, is there any rule on steering radius limits besides not hitting your hands on the tank/fairing/bike or using the damper as a stop?

Thanks for any guidance, I'm trying to select the proper class for our venture.
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 10:32:36 PM »

Interested in seeing the answer. I had ask the same question as it relates to El Mirage. 

Buzz
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 12:51:22 AM »

APS 1350 P would be an altered partially streamlined 1350 PUSHROD motor,production class is designated by the initial P not the following P. So a P 1350 P would be production class, and a P 1350 PP would be a production class pushrod motor.
Motor alone does not determine the Production designation.And production bike must appear identical in all respects including intake and exhaust system so you are out anyway.
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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 02:08:19 AM »

The record on page 54 I'm refering to is Don Mills Suzuki listed as APS-P, isn't that a Hayabusa DOHC, not pushrod?
If not pushrod wouldn't that "P" mean a production engine?

It is still kinda confusing to a near rookie like me.  I understand the first letters are frame type and slipstream but aren't the second engine then fuel?

If "APS-P"  meant pushrod then wouldn't it have to indicate fuel class like we did when we ran Modified Pushrod Gasoline, M-PG last year?  I can see why a "P" for engine can stand alone as Production engines don't have to indicate fuel since by definition they are gasoline. The record book shows an MPS-P and an MPS-PG, wouldn't one be Modified Partial Streamline-Production while the other would indicate Modified Partial Streamline-Pushrod Gasoline? 

If modified frames can carry production engines, certainly the rules have room for those who want to improve speed by special construction frames using production engines.  It seems possible one could mount a production engine rig from airbox to muffler into a special construction frame.

The production frame rules do specify original airbox and exhaust but the production engine rules do not.  Given, the production engine rules do mention the engine should be one originally installed but we built our APS around an original engine and it's frame mounting cradle so that technically the engine is originally installed.  Why should production frames and modified frames be able to use Production engines and not special construction? There should be a way for a special construction frame to carry a production engine as well as any other class frame.  Between my not so common sense and the examples in the record listings I'm still confused.

I want to understand.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 08:46:20 AM by Bruin » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 09:11:36 AM »

Just a reminder people....we are talking BUB Trials (AMA/FIM).......Got a question....Call Delvene....Simple
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2009, 10:24:03 AM »

Called BUB and spoke to Linnea, she confirmed APS-P to mean Special Construction Partial Streamline Production Engine.
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 10:55:01 AM »

Called BUB and spoke to Linnea, she confirmed APS-P to mean Special Construction Partial Streamline Production Engine.

So you can have a full on race chassis and bodywork and then you are going to run a stock production engine?
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 11:28:17 AM »

Called BUB and spoke to Linnea, she confirmed APS-P to mean Special Construction Partial Streamline Production Engine.

So you can have a full on race chassis and bodywork and then you are going to run a stock production engine?

With a "custom intake and final exhaust" would it still be "production"?
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Larry Cason
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2009, 11:32:09 AM »

NO
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2009, 11:34:35 AM »

NO

Agreed.  cheers
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Larry Cason
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 03:49:31 PM »

If I choose to run a production engine in my special construction frame of course I'll rig the motor to meet whatever the rules require, stock air and exhaust, whatever is proper.  I can't say at this time I am 100% locked into the idea but I did want the option since my Juice-up-the-motor budget is thin and my elbow-grease-on-the-frame budget is vast.
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 08:10:04 PM »

Since you're running at Bub's I can't be sure of the rules you'll need to follow -- but there's not much advantage to running a stock production engine in an altered frame -- other than it'll cost you less.  Others in the class -- that might be running for the same record as you would seek -- will no doubt have "built" engines in their bikes, putting you at a disadvantage.  But (and it's a big butt, so to speak) -- you'll still be able to have lots and lots of fun riding your own hand-made bike at the Bonneville Salt Flats.
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 08:43:35 PM »

The majority at BUB run AMA rules.
AMA RACING
SUPPLEMENTAL REGULATIONS
BUB MOTORCYCLE SPEED TRIALS
BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS
AUGUST 30TH SEPTEMBER 3RD 2009
http://www.speedtrialsbybub.com/2009_event/AMA-BonSR%27s-2009-v6.pdf

Quote
12.A. PRODUCTION: P
The same engine must be used that was originally installed in the
specific motorcycle at the time of production and must meet the
definition set in the P frame class (Ch 4). Original equipment
must include cylinders, cases (crankcases), heads, carburetion or
throttle body (stock venturi), kick-starter or electric starter.
Displacement determines the class. Increased displacement beyond
the class limit will place the motorcycle in the correct class.
GASOLINE ONLY. Fuel not permitted in this class. See section
2.F.


Setting a record with a production frame and production engine . . . Priceless

Setting a record with a modified frame, special construction frame, or streamliner AND a production engine . . . Worthless.

Oh yeah, you can do it, and you can wave around a nifty certificate. But have you REALLY accomplished anything. Nobody will ever break the record because the next guy will just pick some other empty record.
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 11:27:09 PM »

I got a second note from BUB and it seems everyone was right. Yes, there is an APS-P bike that accomplished a worthy 201.77 record. Yes, it is BUB's intent to not let any frame other than production run production engines.  They confessed to some confusion in production class interptitation but are ironing it out. Bottom line, APS-P is not an option.  Delvene has kindly enlightened me.

Just call me APS-AG and look for the guy with the big grin and salt in his teeth.
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2009, 10:05:42 AM »

The majority at BUB run AMA rules.
AMA RACING
SUPPLEMENTAL REGULATIONS
BUB MOTORCYCLE SPEED TRIALS
BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS
AUGUST 30TH SEPTEMBER 3RD 2009
http://www.speedtrialsbybub.com/2009_event/AMA-BonSR%27s-2009-v6.pdf

Quote
12.A. PRODUCTION: P
The same engine must be used that was originally installed in the
specific motorcycle at the time of production and must meet the
definition set in the P frame class (Ch 4). Original equipment
must include cylinders, cases (crankcases), heads, carburetion or
throttle body (stock venturi), kick-starter or electric starter.
Displacement determines the class. Increased displacement beyond
the class limit will place the motorcycle in the correct class.
GASOLINE ONLY. Fuel not permitted in this class. See section
2.F.


Setting a record with a production frame and production engine . . . Priceless

Setting a record with a modified frame, special construction frame, or streamliner AND a production engine . . . Worthless.

Oh yeah, you can do it, and you can wave around a nifty certificate. But have you REALLY accomplished anything. Nobody will ever break the record because the next guy will just pick some other empty record.

Shoot Dean, I don't see how it would be "worthless" to set a number with a production engine. huh The point is moot now, and I told Brian that I thought I had read something to that effect before, so we're just talking hypothetical situations now, but really, everyone has to start somewhere, and if one could pull a piece of paper on the first trip with a new bike, why not.  tongue We have to enter it into some class to run, and this is the first time this bike is going to the salt. Call it shake down for the chassis and seeing how well our aero package works. We're really just having fun with this, and aren't about to let lack of funds to build an all out engine keep us from testing the chassis. We can always enter a more competitive class once we've got the engine pumped up, maybe next year. Let's face it though, with a 30 year old single cylinder engine design, what are our chances of actually being competitive?  rolleyes

Really, we're just taking what we have and doing the best we can with it. That's the challenge we've set for our selves, and we're darn sure going to have a good time doing it. grin
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 10:17:13 AM by WhizzbangK.C. » Logged

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