New car-rules explanation

[Morpheus]

   First time car racer. Will be running F/Production, with a totally stock vehicle. I have a 2007 r/book & have checked the site for 2008 updates.

I have installed wheel studs, and the lug nuts are of the proper diameter, 19mm/ .748" that's required, for alloy rims. Valve caps/ZR tires taken care of also. Car won't be exceeding, I think, 135mph, so I shouldn't need the roll bar, arm restraints, window net, and I should be able to use the stock seatbelt setup. Correct me if i'm wrong, please !

I will be adding driveshaft loop(s) and an uprated 5 point harness assy., hopefully before the Sept/Oct meets. I have all the necessary driver safety equipment.

The big problems (?) are: what do I do about the sunroof, as it's a rather expensive car to start drilling/welding upon? What about the requirement for a scattershield, as there aren't any available, nor is there room to fabricate and install one in the vehicle, without very major surgery   

Thanks for your help with these items !   

[t russell]

most street cars wll pass tech to 135mph.Factory belts/tires/battery tie downs.
terry

[White Monster]

If you do not exceed 135 MPH, you can race in the Time Only (/TO) category without all the other safety equipment installed and get your timing slip.

This catagory allows you to make runs down the track in your street licensed car under 135 MPH.
All you will need is the following; factory seat belts (3-point minimum), Snell SA2000 or M2000 rated helmet with face shield, long sleeve cotton shirt or jacket and long pants (jeans are fine).
Then you are good to go.

Hope to see you there September 19-20 or October 24-25 !
 

[samg]

If you do not exceed 135 MPH, you can race in the Time Only (/TO) category without all the other safety equipment installed and get your timing slip.

This catagory allows you to make runs down the track in your street licensed car under 135 MPH.
All you will need is the following; factory seat belts (3-point minimum), Snell SA2000 or M2000 rated helmet with face shield, long sleeve cotton shirt or jacket and long pants (jeans are fine).
Then you are good to go.

Hope to see you there September 19-20 or October 24-25 !
 

Are there car related (not fire suit/personal equipment) exceptions to push up the allowable speed to 150MPH from 135 MPH depending on the type of stock car?  For example, I have a new 2010 that has five star crash ratings in all aspects (including roll over), side impact beams in the doors, wheels and tires rated for 167MPH.  All of this from the factory.  Seems like this might be good enough protection for a run to 150 MPH without, for example, a four point roll bar.  The car is electronically limited from the factory to around 160 MPH.

Thanks in advance.

[bvillercr]

If you do not exceed 135 MPH, you can race in the Time Only (/TO) category without all the other safety equipment installed and get your timing slip.

This catagory allows you to make runs down the track in your street licensed car under 135 MPH.
All you will need is the following; factory seat belts (3-point minimum), Snell SA2000 or M2000 rated helmet with face shield, long sleeve cotton shirt or jacket and long pants (jeans are fine).
Then you are good to go.

Hope to see you there September 19-20 or October 24-25 !
 

Are there car related (not fire suit/personal equipment) exceptions to push up the allowable speed to 150MPH from 135 MPH depending on the type of stock car?  For example, I have a new 2010 that has five star crash ratings in all aspects (including roll over), side impact beams in the doors, wheels and tires rated for 167MPH.  All of this from the factory.  Seems like this might be good enough protection for a run to 150 MPH without, for example, a four point roll bar.  The car is electronically limited from the factory to around 160 MPH.

Thanks in advance.

Your five star crash rating in all aspects insn't a rating at 150mph.   

[samg]

If you do not exceed 135 MPH, you can race in the Time Only (/TO) category without all the other safety equipment installed and get your timing slip.

This catagory allows you to make runs down the track in your street licensed car under 135 MPH.
All you will need is the following; factory seat belts (3-point minimum), Snell SA2000 or M2000 rated helmet with face shield, long sleeve cotton shirt or jacket and long pants (jeans are fine).
Then you are good to go.

Hope to see you there September 19-20 or October 24-25 !
 

Are there car related (not fire suit/personal equipment) exceptions to push up the allowable speed to 150MPH from 135 MPH depending on the type of stock car?  For example, I have a new 2010 that has five star crash ratings in all aspects (including roll over), side impact beams in the doors, wheels and tires rated for 167MPH.  All of this from the factory.  Seems like this might be good enough protection for a run to 150 MPH without, for example, a four point roll bar.  The car is electronically limited from the factory to around 160 MPH.

Thanks in advance.

Your five star crash rating in all aspects insn't a rating at 150mph.   

Thanks for the response.  But I am just trying to understand the technical basis for the flat rule.  Those crash ratings are not for 135MPH either.  Also, prior to 2009 or so US cars were not required to have much in the way of roll over protection.  Some do and some don't.  So many earlier model cars going 135MPH would, I think, have much less protection than a 5-star to the new requirements at 150MPH.  Not saying either would work well enough in absolute terms, talking relative protection.

So based on all of that I still don't understand the blanket rule for all stock cars no matter what type they are.  Thanks again.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

I'd guess -- and this is just a guess, remember -- that it's easier (from the standpoint of the officials and rule-makers) to enact a flat rule and, if someone wants a variance -- to discuss with that person just why he feels his race vehicle deserves one.  Your new vehicle may, indeed, have sufficient crash or rollover or whatever protection built-in -- but I'm guessing that you'd have to show such to the officials, the race director, and so on, to be allowed to run at speeds over the 135.  I may be wrong, of course -- it's just my guess.  Donna and Joe are already in the vehicle heading towards Loring (I think), so they might not get back to you with a response in quick time.  Hey, maybe they won't at all!  And Tonya and Keith are finishing up some stuff in Ala-Bama before they head to Bville -- so they'll likely not get back to you 'til they do, too.

But don't worry - the rest of us racers will be happy to take up sides and blather on incessantly.

[Morpheus]

   samg... it's not so much what the factory rates your vehicle at from a safety point of view. That's for crusing down the hwy., at a "reasonable" rate of speed. With that said, "if" something happens, exactly how is your equipment going to protect you?

Sure the body per se won't (maybe?) cave in on "you", the tires shouldn't blow/seperate, so that leaves "you" !   

But I have 16,000 air bags around me! Yep, sure do, and at first impact they inflate in milliseconds... then start to deflate 

Well after about 5-6 end overs, you're left bouncing around inside, with only your 3 point harness.... maybe    if you haven't seperated from that safety device. What's left?

Toss in the top fuel acceleration of the overweight, underpowered diesel rescue vehicles, and you'll see why. Everything takes time. Something you have precious little of in the above example.

IMHO first do the rules. They're there to protect you, not bust your chops so you can't participate. The racing is fun, but only if it's done safely!

I posted the question cause i've only run bikes before, and I didn't want to make the trip & then be told no. Long ride... no racing...long ride home... sucks!

Hope this helps..................

[Glen]

If anyone saw the Tom Finn accident a few years ago would realize what a vehicle and driver goes through in a 125 mph crash. It was a 1949 Chevy. It had a roll bar, a 1/2 door net , seat belts and all other safety gear required at the time. It also had a stock bench type seat. The first flip the doors came open the seat compressed allowing the driver to get loose inside the car resulting in major injuries.

The incident was the reason many changes were made including a real race car seat and some design changes of roll bars. Tom had many long and expensive months of recovery. There are no stock factory cars that will with stand what we see racing.  Build it to save your skin. If you want to run Bonneville or El Mirage you must meet all of our rules. We have no control over what other racing assocs. have for rules. Just over 70 years experience.

[White Monster]

I am just trying to understand the technical basis for the flat rule.  Those crash ratings are not for 135MPH either.  Also, prior to 2009 or so US cars were not required to have much in the way of roll over protection.  Some do and some don't.  So many earlier model cars going 135MPH would, I think, have much less protection than a 5-star to the new requirements at 150MPH.  Not saying either would work well enough in absolute terms, talking relative protection.

So based on all of that I still don't understand the blanket rule for all stock cars no matter what type they are.  Thanks again.

This is fairly simple to answer, right out of the rulebook ...

"All cars in competition over 135 MPH, must be equiped with a roll bar or roll cage structure."

Followed up by ...

"Any individual wishing to enter a vehicle which deviates from these rules MUST contact the ECTA 45 days before the event for approval."

As Jon stated, it will be up to the team to provide the documentation for the Committee to review.

[samg]

I am just trying to understand the technical basis for the flat rule.  Those crash ratings are not for 135MPH either.  Also, prior to 2009 or so US cars were not required to have much in the way of roll over protection.  Some do and some don't.  So many earlier model cars going 135MPH would, I think, have much less protection than a 5-star to the new requirements at 150MPH.  Not saying either would work well enough in absolute terms, talking relative protection.

So based on all of that I still don't understand the blanket rule for all stock cars no matter what type they are.  Thanks again.

This is fairly simple to answer, right out of the rulebook ...

"All cars in competition over 135 MPH, must be equiped with a roll bar or roll cage structure."

Followed up by ...

"Any individual wishing to enter a vehicle which deviates from these rules MUST contact the ECTA 45 days before the event for approval."

As Jon stated, it will be up to the team to provide the documentation for the Committee to review.

I'm in this process of ECTA discussion as we speak.

Just to clarify, as I said in my previous post, am not arguing that stock protection of a new vehicle is adequate in absolute terms for a crash at 150 MPH or 135 MPH for that matter. My argument is relative to what is allowed at 135 MPH and trying to understand that.  So using a roll over as an example, the mechanical energy to dissipate in a crash is about 25% greater at 150 MPH versus 135 MPH.  If I understand the rules a 1969 car, for example, could run at 135 MPH.  Such a car has virtually no roll over protection or energy dissipating crash zones/air bags/etc.  A new highly crash rated car must have increased protection relative to the older car far in excess than the 25% mechanical energy increase.  That is my only point I am trying to understand.

Back to applying for a waver, it involves the reasonable and prudent request for enginnering information and drawings of the car.  That is what is naturally needed to make a determination.  Would appreciate if anyone has info on the following, but I do not know how to get publically available engineering data/drawings on a production car. So I may be stuck in the mud on this one.

Thanks again.

[bvillercr]

I doubt you will get anything from any engineer.  Stop wasting your time and others and conform with the rules.   

[samg]

I doubt you will get anything from any engineer.  Stop wasting your time and others and conform with the rules.   

Well, that is one way to look at it.  Actually the ECTA tech director thought it was a good topic of discussion and open to evaluate the request if we could get the required info.  He did not indicate it was a waste of time.

Do you have anything technical or substantive to add to the discussion or just an emotional opinion?

[bvillercr]

You have a good point with the correlation between old and new with safety standards, and no I have no data to add and no there is no emotion on my side.  Our vehicle is already built and meets or exceeds the rules in place.  Good luck with your car ever if it never sees 150.  

[samg]

You have a good point with the correlation between old and new with safety standards, and no I have no data to add and no there is no emotion on my side.  Our vehicle is already built and meets or exceeds the rules in place.  Good luck with your car ever if it never sees 150.  

Thanks and good luck.