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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 655940 times)
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Glen
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« Reply #480 on: July 29, 2011, 02:08:49 PM »

I thought he had a chicken on board and he was wringing it's neck.
Chicken choker. LOL
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« Reply #481 on: July 30, 2011, 07:54:37 PM »

We are staying for a few days with my family in Cool, California.  It is about 45 minutes drive to the BUB factory and we made a visit.  Linnea was very nice and she gave us a factory tour.  A look at all of those pipes being made gave me an idea.

The BUB pipes for a Bonneville are a 2 into 2 carbon steel system with baffled megaphones.  Plans are for me to order a bare (unchromed) system with the megaphones without the baffles.  It will be easy for me to cut and modify the BUB system to get the correct length.  I know how to weld mild steel.  When I do this I will have several questions about the best way to tune the pipes.

Gretchen wants to learn how to ride a motorcycle.  She only rode two times before this trip and she was not experienced.  We rode a few hours in the high desert east of Bend, Oregon, one evening and one full day in the Warner Mountains in california and Oregon, and an afternoon in the Sierra Nevada mountains in California.  She is fourteen, and at this age, is easy to teach.  In addition she does not have bad habits to be unlearned.  She slowly works at learning the basics.  The photo shows her hauling donkey down a Sierra trail in the classic attack position - elbows wide, head down, knees gripping the tank, and butt off of the seat. 


* Gretchen on the Go.JPG (367.16 KB, 1024x683 - viewed 173 times.)
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MC 1314
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« Reply #482 on: July 30, 2011, 09:46:33 PM »

Wobbly.. my old stompin grounds are the Roseville, Auburn, Grass Valley, Nevada City area, did some mining in Downieville for 35 years or so to. My wife is from Georgetown..darned small world huh. Bub has a great place in GV. Cool is a great place, do not know how it got it's name but in July it usually isn't!!
Look me up at Bub, I work Pre stage, just look for the potbellied guy.
Bob
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« Reply #483 on: July 30, 2011, 10:53:27 PM »

You may get an award as one of the all time great dads WW. cheers cheers cheers

Pete
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« Reply #484 on: August 08, 2011, 03:26:30 AM »

The valve head to piston clearances are checked.  Many methods have been used over the years and this one works best for me.  First, I clean all oil off the piston crowns and I put on dabs of soft modeling clay.  Then, I rub some oil on the valve heads.  I do not want the clay to stick to the valves.  Some method is needed to turn the crank.  I do not use the starter motor.  An allen wrench is used to turn the crank.  This hand method is what I want.  I will stop turning if I feel any resistance from a valve hitting a piston.

The Triumph valves are necked so the stems near the heads are narrower than the stems in the valve guides.  This improves airflow and it makes them lighter but they are easily bent.  Most of my experience with bending valves is when they nip up against the side of the valve pockets in the piston crowns.  I am very careful now.  I shim the head above the cylinders with three washers each on six of the eight studs and I do not bolt the head down.   I hook up the cams to the cam chain and drive gears.  Now I hold the head down on the cylinders with my hand and I slowly rotate the crank.  The only resistance that I should feel is the clay being squished.  Any harder resistance is a danger sign and I need to stop turning the crank.

Now I remove the drive gears and I pull the head off.  I cut the clay across the marks where the valves touched the clay.  Examining the cut clay shows me my clearances.  The clearances seem to be OK.  The process is repeated with only one washer on each stud and clearances look good.  Then is is repeated a final time with only the head gasket on and 5 lbs-ft torque on the head bolts.

The cam data card gives the minimum valve head to piston crown clearance.  All are OK.  I note that I will also have sufficient clearances with the larger valves that I am considering for the future. 

An additional step would be done if the clearances were near or at the minimum.  I would retard both cams one tooth and recheck the clearances.  This would resemble the engine if the cam chain was very worn.  I would change the chain before it was this badly worn, however. 

Regarding the checks for valve to piston clearances, how much clearance did you have...?
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« Reply #485 on: August 08, 2011, 04:03:19 AM »

The next step is to verify that the new higher lift cam does not cause coil bind.  Also, the spring compressed lengths will be calculated to see if any springs need to be shimmed.

Coil bind occurs when the spring is compressed to the extent that all of the the coils are touching each other.  The spring is solid.  Coil bind can damage the engine.  The cam manufacturer recommends 0.015 inches gap between each coil at a  minimum.  A spring is compressed in a vise until coil bind and its length is measured.  0.015 inches is added to the compressed spring length for each coil gap.  The minimum spring compressed length is 1.082 inches as shown on the top ot the calculation page.

The distance A between the retainer spring seat and the valve tip is measured.  This is different than the "A" used in the retainer to seal gap clearance calcs in the previous post.  Distance B is measured, too.  It is the distance between the lower spring seat and the talve tip when the valve is closed.  Distance C is from the cam data card.  Some simple math tells me the compressed length for each spring.  All are less than the 1.082 inch minimum.  Not good.

Now I compress a spring to 1.037 inches in a vice.  This is the most highly compressed spring.  The gaps between the middle coils are 0.025 inches and the coils near the ends are at coil bind.  Not ideal, but the spring is not at coil bind.  The springs will work OK.

Now I look at the compressed spring lengths again.  Are any springs not compressed enough?  If so, I will put a shim under them to compress them to the same length as the others.  The shims look like machined steel washers.  No springs are long enough to require a shim.

These little calculations tell me a third thing.  The #813 cam has the most lift that the standard valve train can tolerate.  Any more lift will cause coil bind in the standard Triumph valve springs.

Hi, love your analysis on this build, your D measurements for the a valves are 1.037" to 1.043" and safe limit is 1.082", I think your at coil bind sir. How can this be rectified to have safety margin with your valve train?

Cheers....Agro
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« Reply #486 on: August 09, 2011, 12:50:38 AM »

Pete, the girl is an honor roll student, she treats everyone including her mother with respect, and she has gone with me to B-ville twice as a helper.  She looked at me with those big brown eyes and said "I want to learn how to ride.  I will take care of my bike."  The salesman offering me the discount price on the bike and the six month no interest loan clinched the deal.  I was no hero and more like a dinosaur in the La Brea tar pit.  What else could I do?  Nine out of ten of us would have done exactly what I did.  No regrets.  Everything worked out OK.

Agro, more than 1 mm clearance between the valves and the pistons, as I recall.  I did not record the measurements.

No springs are at coil bind and a few are very close to coil bind.  The safety factor is near zero.  I knew it was a problem and I was very, very, careful during the installation.  It was a risky deal and it worked.  That motor ran great and it did what it needed to do.

I am worried about valve spring life with the springs near coil bind.  South Bay Triumph sells a fancy kit with under the bucket shims and racing valve springs.  I strongly recommend this for racing cams.  Installing the kit is on my to-do list.  Hopefully I will get it done before I drop a valve or have some other problem.     
   
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« Reply #487 on: August 09, 2011, 02:55:58 AM »

Wob, PM sent..........

Cheers............agro

Pete, the girl is an honor roll student, she treats everyone including her mother with respect, and she has gone with me to B-ville twice as a helper.  She looked at me with those big brown eyes and said "I want to learn how to ride.  I will take care of my bike."  The salesman offering me the discount price on the bike and the six month no interest loan clinched the deal.  I was no hero and more like a dinosaur in the La Brea tar pit.  What else could I do?  Nine out of ten of us would have done exactly what I did.  No regrets.  Everything worked out OK.

Agro, more than 1 mm clearance between the valves and the pistons, as I recall.  I did not record the measurements.

No springs are at coil bind and a few are very close to coil bind.  The safety factor is near zero.  I knew it was a problem and I was very, very, careful during the installation.  It was a risky deal and it worked.  That motor ran great and it did what it needed to do.

I am worried about valve spring life with the springs near coil bind.  South Bay Triumph sells a fancy kit with under the bucket shims and racing valve springs.  I strongly recommend this for racing cams.  Installing the kit is on my to-do list.  Hopefully I will get it done before I drop a valve or have some other problem.     
   
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« Reply #488 on: August 10, 2011, 12:42:46 AM »

A few things I forgot to say about cams in the Triumph.

The 865 cc 10.5 to 1 ratio Arias pistons and the 813 grind cams in my engine are a performance package from South Bay Triumph.  They also modify the advance curves in the ignition module to match this kit.  All of this makes a good street roadster motor with lots of midrange power.  It is not the best setup for an LSR engine.  Too mild.

Larger valves are a common and very effective modification for this engine.  My intake valves are 2mm larger than standard and the exhaust valves are standard.  These are good sizes for a street engine.  Valves are available in larger sizes and the valve pockets in the Arias pistons accommodate valves up to 5mm larger diameter than standard.  I checked the clearance between the pocket sides and the valve edges.  There was plenty.

Cams with over 0.390 inches lift will bind the standard springs.  The 813 cams have slightly less lift and they are, for practical purposes, the hottest cams that can be used with the standard springs and the standard retainers with shims on top of the buckets.  The valve pockets in the Arias pistons will accommodate much higher lift cams than the 813 grind.  There is lots of clearance between the valve heads and the piston crowns.

My springs were close to coil bind with the 813 cam.  There are things I do to minimize any problems due to this.  The rev limiter is set so the engine cannot turn fast enough to float the valves and bind the springs if they are in good condition.  This is essential.  In addition, I check the spring tensions before assembly to make sure all are in good shape.  I do not have the tools to test the spring tension at zero and max lift.  This would be a good thing to do.  Also, the engine goes on the dyno annually and I look at the torque curves near red line.  The curves will tell me if I have a floating valve.

The South Bay Triumph racing lifter kit will accommodate the higher lift cams that produce lots of top end power.  The valve adjustment shims are under the buckets so they cannot be spit out.  This is a big plus for safety.  I do not know the maximum cam lift that can be used with the Arias pistons and the SBT racing lifter kit.   

There might be good parts made by other people than South Bay Triumph.  I would not know.  The SBT stuff costs more, I know that.  Their parts are developed and refined by actual use at Bonneville and they do not give me any problems.  This means a lot to me and it is the main reason why I use their components.
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« Reply #489 on: August 12, 2011, 12:49:29 AM »

It is the early 1970's and I am a younger guy.  One of my friends road races a production bike and he invites me to go with him to the races.  I have never been to a road race and it sounds like fun.  Thursday evening I pack my sleeping bag, cooking gear, tent, etc on my trusty Honda 350.  Always the optimist, I slip a fresh rubber into my wallet.

Friday at work I imagine an evening of light partying, some restful sleep, and an early morning trip to the track.  Dreams and reality are different.  Friday evening I arrive at my friend's double car garage.  It is packed with guys and gals and bikes in all sorts of disassembled states.  A dog or two also.  I set to work changing tires, etc.  Bottles of red wine are passed around and joints, too.  It gets dark outside and I am feeling pretty good.  Someone hands me a box of Suzooki transmission gear clusters and a greasy shop manual and says "These are our blown clusters.  See if you can find enough unbroken parts to make one good set."  The night goes on.  One by one the bikes are finished and put in the vans.  The racers lay their sleeping bags alongside the bikes in the vans and try to get a few hours sleep.  The rest of us work.  It is just getting light and we are off to the races.  I ride my Honda.  I did not have a car license in those years.

We get to the track and wait in line to get in.  It is Sears Point.  I look at the soft brown grass on those gentle California hills and imagine myself sound asleep on top of my down filled paratrooper bag.  Dreams.  Reality is different.  There is not enough money for the entrance fees and several of us are "volunteered" to be corner marshals for the races.  The corner worker has several flags.  A yellow one, I vaguely remember, is waved if someone crashes in the corner.  The other racers see this and slow down.  There is another color flag to wave if there is oil on the track.  A fellow has to pay attention while doing this job.  This was a challenge.  No sleep for about 30 hours.  A cheap wine hangover.  Serious cotton mouth.  Lots of hot sun and castor oil fumes.  Somehow, everything went OK and no one died due to my funky flagging.

This was a classic thrash and there were many more through the years.  I thought I had finally learned how to avoid them.  Dreams and reality are not the same.  The parts arrived from England late and the bike will be ready to pick up at the shop tomorrow evening.  One weekend, maybe two, to turn the bike from street to racing trim.  Another thrash... 
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« Reply #490 on: August 13, 2011, 12:58:15 AM »

The Triumph is back from the shop.  The new mosfet regulator from Ricks is a direct replacement.  It bolts on in place of the standard unit and it has the correct connector on it.  There is none of the typical motorcycle accessory adapt-a-fit hassle.  The mechanic told me to periodically check the regulator to wiring harness connection and to make sure it is tight and non-corroded.  He said I will prevent future problems if I do this.

The mechanic talked to several of the local tuners and he learned a lot about flatslides.  He was told that these carbs are very good for producing maximum top end horsepower and they are not as precise as other carbs at smaller throttle openings.  An expert tuner told him to not choose jet and needle settings by looking at the fuel-air ratio curves.  He said to jet the carbs to produce maximum power.

The blue curves on the attached show mixture and power with #138 main jets.  The red curves show the same with richer #140 mains.  Richer #142 mains were tried and the power fell significantly.  These are the two best jets for producing power.  The initial jets for Bonneville will be the #140's and I will change as needed to suit local conditions.

The 70 horsepower this engine produces is not very much and it is barely better than the old 790 cc motor.  Next year I will install the bucket, spring, and shim kit for higher lift cams and I will try some street cams that are ground to produce more top end power.







* 2011 Power and Mixture.jpg (125.13 KB, 768x819 - viewed 160 times.)
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #491 on: August 14, 2011, 12:51:11 AM »

A lot of work to do in a short time.  A thrash.  The next few posts will show some things I have learned over the years.

The first step is to find and lay out the parts I will need.  Everything, including nuts and bolts, goes onto the garage floor.  This part of Oregon is a backwater and almost everything I need beyond the basics must be ordered and shipped to me.  The object of this is to find out if I need to order anything so I will get it on time.  The riveted chain master links I have are the wrong size.  I order some more.

Next I find all of my spares, such as an extra igniter, coils, inner tubes, throttle cable, etc., and I put them in a hand grenade box.  I will think of more spares to take during the coming week and I will put them in the box, too.

Finally, I collect all of the special tools and put them in an ammo can.

This method helps me to remember to bring everything.  During the week I will use all sorts of tools and I will say to myself  "should I take this with me to the salt?"  If yes, into the can it goes.   



* Everything Laid Out.JPG (266.68 KB, 800x515 - viewed 176 times.)
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« Reply #492 on: August 14, 2011, 12:23:40 PM »

Now it is time to figure out which tasks to do first.  Some things must be done before others.  I ask myself a lot of "what if" questions.  Some serious thinking reveals that I need to adjust the valves before I put on the fairing.  I ask myself "what if I do not have the right valve shim, cannot find it locally, and I must order one from Triumph in Beaverton?"  This could derail the entire thrash if I wait to adjust the valves.  The valve adjustment is the first task.

The Bonneville valve shims were also used for many late 1970 and early 1980 bikes, such as the 750 cc DOHC Hondas, the big Kawasaki fours, the Yamaha XS-750 triples and the XS-1100 fours, and some others.  I need several shims and I am lucky, the local Honda shop has them.

Most of us rotate the cam to a point where the lobe faces directly away from the valve shim and we do a single clearance measurement.  Cam base circles are not always concentric with the cam centerlines, sometimes there are slight bumps and flat spots on the base circles, and often there is some clearance between the cams and their bearings.  I rock the cams forwards and backwards a few times a make several measurements of the clearance between the base circle and the shim at different locations.  The shim adjustment is based on these multiple measurements rather than a single one.  This method gives me better results.

In the past there has been some scuffing and pitting on race cams I have installed.  These cams had none of this and they looked perfect.  The engine was broken in with 10-40 mineral oil with an oil additive for the break-in period.  This oil was replaced with 20-40 synthetic motorcycle oil made for bikes with integral clutches and trannys.  Throughout all of this I made sure the oils had adequate zinc and phosphorous to prevent cam and lifter damage.  This is something I learned how to do from this forum and it works.


* Valve Adjustment.JPG (307.33 KB, 800x591 - viewed 168 times.)
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« Reply #493 on: August 16, 2011, 01:41:30 AM »

The thrash is moving along as expected.  I was pulling the trailer on the interstate to retrieve the bike from Portland and suddenly I realized that I forgot to tighten the lug nuts on the right wheel after I installed a new tire.  Then I stood up while lifting an air wrench from the bottom drawer of my roll-around and I cut my head on the top drawer I forgot to close.  Clear thinking under pressure is not my strong point.

The Triumph does not have a normal motorcycle frame.  It has a top frame that bolts to the engine like a Vincent and a swing arm that connects to the rear of the engine.  There are all sorts of plates and brackets and the cradle under the engine bolts to the top frame and some brackets near the swing arm.  All of this works well enough when the bolts are tight.  An important pre-race chore is to retorque the bolts.

The first step is to look up the torque in the shop manual.  The published torque value is for a bolt if there is no nut, or it is for the nut if there is one on the bolt.  The torque values are for clean and dry threads unless noted otherwise.  The published torque for the example nut on the engine mounting bolt is 80 Newton-meters.  The first photo shows the loosened nut after I took it off and cleaned the threads.  I cannot get a socket on the nut to tighten it with a torque wrench.  The oil line is in the way.

The bolt head is on the other side of the bike as shown in Photo 2.  I can get a socket on it.  The oil line is not blocking it.  I use the torque wrench to measure the torque it takes to overcome friction to make the bolt turn as shown in Photo 3.  The nut on the other side is loose when I do this.  It takes 5 Newton-meters torque to make the bolt turn.

Now I add the two torques together as shown in Photo 4.  This give me the torque value when I tighten the bolt with the socket and torque wrench on the bolt head end and I hold the nut steady with a combination wrench.  The 85 Newton-meter torque I use provides 80 Newton-meters to tighten the bolt and another 5 Newton-meters torque to overcome friction between the bolt and the bolt hole.       


* Backwards Torque 1.JPG (86.14 KB, 448x299 - viewed 169 times.)

* Backwards Torque 2.JPG (81.36 KB, 448x299 - viewed 162 times.)

* Backwards Torque 3.JPG (102.44 KB, 448x299 - viewed 156 times.)

* Backwards Torque 4.JPG (73.03 KB, 448x299 - viewed 157 times.)
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« Reply #494 on: August 16, 2011, 03:26:18 PM »

It is a thrill to see the vehicles in this build diary on the salt at Speedweek.  We have watched them turn from dreams to completed vehicles and now they become veteran race machines.  The only one I have seen in the photos so far is Fabio's the Gus Gus liner.  There is a lot of European race car technology in that car and it will be interesting to see how all of it works.  I wish them well.  Freud's post about the emotions he feels at Speedweek is touching.  Most of us fell this way and Freud has the courage and gift to write it down.  Ray and Slim, youse guys are doing a good job.

The Triumph has a countershaft sprocket held on by a nut and the countershaft is enclosed within a big bushing and all rotate within the oil seal.  All are uncoated carbon steel and salt can get in there and rust everything up solid.  These are doused with anti corrosion oil during setup and all are taken apart and cleaned when I get home.

Our union contract says we take a couple of weeks off a year with no pay.  These are furlough days.  I forgot about them and my boss reminded me.  I will take today and Friday off to finish the bike.  This will be a big help.  The back end is done and now it is time to turn the scoot around and do the front.   


* Oil This Here.JPG (146.71 KB, 640x438 - viewed 172 times.)

* One Half Done.JPG (286.73 KB, 800x587 - viewed 180 times.)
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