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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 774429 times)

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Offline tauruck

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3285 on: January 30, 2019, 01:22:37 AM »
I see you doing my job there Bo?. Nice rubber work.
You should be getting paid by Triumph for all the R&D.

You blow me away.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Offline gowing

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3286 on: January 30, 2019, 10:36:21 AM »
Excellent thread!
Great Pics!

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3287 on: January 30, 2019, 07:42:44 PM »
Thanks for the compliments.  This guy on a pension can afford to keep beating the old warhorse for a few more mph.  A proper race bike seems like a good idea.  Chances are I would be too old to ride it by the time I saved the money to buy it and got it sorted out.  More things will be posted when I get them done.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3288 on: January 30, 2019, 09:40:40 PM »
This jeweler's loupe is used to inspect parts.  It has a lens on the top and an added lens on the bottom.  Sometimes things are seen with it that I do not want to see.  I need to get rid of it.  This is the back of the piston skirt.  Both skirts of both pistons have this mark.  It looks like a crack.  This would be a big setback.  The pistons surely would break apart at ten grand of they crack at nine.  Fortunately there is a new set of pistons in the junk pile.  Both of them have the same marks on each shirt.  It looks like a tooling mark instead of a crack.  These are stress risers so all four will be polished off.     

Online manta22

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3289 on: January 31, 2019, 10:18:09 AM »
WW;

Zyglo those pistons to be sure if it is a crack or not.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3290 on: January 31, 2019, 10:11:42 PM »
That zyglo sounds interesting.  I will see what it is.  The used and unused pistons all have exactly the same scratches.  Here is a close-up using crop.

The first is a report for the virgin oil from the bottle.  It is a top grade oil made for motorcycle race use.  What I looked for is viscosity.  It tests to be the viscosity it says on the bottle.  Also, it has zinc and phosphorous.  This is good.  It is a synthetic made from ester base stock.

The second report is for the used oil.  It has been through the dyno work and three runs down the salt.  It is starting to collect a little bit of copper and lead.  This indicates a potential, but minor, problem with the bearing shells.  Lead and copper were 0 before.  Now they are 8 and 10 ppm, respectively.

This oil lubes the engine, clutch, and transmission.  Shear from the gears and the resultant loss of viscosity are something I worry about.  The oil has lost some viscosity, but not enough to be worried about.  SUS viscosity was 70.7 and now it is 67.3. Minimum is 64.  cSt viscosity was 13.15 and now it is 12.23.  Minimum is 11.6

Rod big end bearing fatigue has been an issue.  Fuel contamination of the oil can alter the fatigue resistance of the shells.  There appears to be only a small bit of contamination.  This is good.  It was zero before.  Now it is <0.5%  Max is 2.0 %     


Online Stainless1

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  • Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3291 on: February 01, 2019, 08:10:10 AM »
WW, your lead might be coming from your race gas... that was the case with ours
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.

Offline ggl205

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3292 on: February 01, 2019, 09:07:38 AM »
"Rod big end bearing fatigue has been an issue.  Fuel contamination of the oil can alter the fatigue resistance of the shells.  There appears to be only a small bit of contamination.  This is good.  It was zero before.  Now it is <0.5%  Max is 2.0 %"

WW, aside from any abnormal contamination, your engine does not develop near enough pressure or RPM to stress a modern day racing bearing. So, any bearing failure comes down to incorrect bearing fit, inadequate oil delivery/supply or inferior oil. In my opinion, King bearing has taken the lead in engine racing bearings, mostly at the hands of Dr. Dmitri Kopeliovich. If you have any further issues with bearing failure, don't hesitate to contact King Bearing. Dr. Kopeliovich used to be accessible but it has been a few years since I last had contact with him.

John   

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3293 on: February 01, 2019, 09:56:56 AM »
The problem has persisted for years.  The gas is unleaded.  This much I am confident in based on prior research.  The shells are more than adequate for the load if lubrication and fit are correct.  The oil is OK.  Fuel dilution is not an issue.  Rod side to crank clearances are OK.  There is a lot more I know and it will be posted tonight with a picture of the shell.

Thanks for helping me with this.       

Offline ggl205

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3294 on: February 01, 2019, 02:17:24 PM »
The problem has persisted for years.  The gas is unleaded.  This much I am confident in based on prior research.  The shells are more than adequate for the load if lubrication and fit are correct.  The oil is OK.  Fuel dilution is not an issue.  Rod side to crank clearances are OK.  There is a lot more I know and it will be posted tonight with a picture of the shell.

Thanks for helping me with this.       

WW, persistent bearing failure is a solvable problem. through very careful reading of bearing shells, many rod related issues can be avoided. One question; are you using high eccentricity rod bearings?

John

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3295 on: February 01, 2019, 02:57:18 PM »
The oil test that you show are from a "mass spectrometer" test which provides the percentage information that you see, have you ever had your oil particle count done? This is where a small amount of oil is ran through a very high level filter and the captured actual particles are counted according to their size in microns. This analysis will tell you if the copper and lead that you see are dissolved solids or actual particles. Particles can be addressed with proper filtration.

One additional note: "New" oil right out of the can or container can be amazingly contaminated. Refineries have pretty poor final filtration before filling the containers that we buy it in. One of the things you can do to eliminate some of this included contamination is to not pour the final few ccs of oil out of the can. The contamination that is usually found in new oil is usually scale and welding slag from the refineries piping and it settles to the
 bottom of the container.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3296 on: February 06, 2019, 10:50:24 PM »
The shells fit tight and I could not find any oversize ones.  I tried reducing the journal size by a few tenths by hand polishing with fine emery paper and careful measuring with a micrometer during the process.  The clearances were marginally tight when I was done.

The upper shell half should show wear on 2/3 to 3/4 of its wearing surface.  Both shells show more than that.  This is an indication they are tight.  One shell shows babbitt transfer due to wiping.  This is another indicator they are tight.  The shell with the wiping shows a score that lines up with the center of the oil hole in the crank.  There might be some contamination issues in the oil flowing to the journal.

I get another opinion.  A call was made to an engine builder.  He makes the motors for the Triumph factory flat track team.  They run up to 10,500 rpm for many more miles than mine will go.  He knows how to make them stay together.

There is no pattern of more lubrication problems on one side than the other, he says.  Also, he said the front oil pump needs to be in perfect condition.  My crank is balanced using a 53 percent factor.  He recommends having it rebalanced to 65%.  He gave me the name of a good expert on these cranks and recommended that I ship the crank, cases, case bolts, and rods to him so he can check everything and make sure all is OK.  I will do this and toss the pistons and pins into the box so the crank can be rebalanced.

The plastic OEM oil pump gears tend to fracture and explode at over 10,000 rpm.  He told me where I can get some steel gears.  They were ordered and are the last set of the batch.  I am lucky to get them.

Online Stainless1

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3297 on: February 07, 2019, 07:32:22 AM »
If you send your stuff off, have them check crank journal roundness.... hand work on a crank usually makes it worse.
 :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.

Offline ggl205

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3298 on: February 07, 2019, 08:59:51 AM »
WW, no bearing pinch at the parting line so your rods are doing their job keeping things round at rpm. It does indeed look like too little clearance between bearing and journal. What clearance did you measure? What clearances did your engine guy recommend? If you have to, there are several very good crank shops that can restore your journals to standard (if required) and grind to desires journal size. They hold a tenth or less for round, straight and size.

John

Online Stainless1

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3299 on: February 07, 2019, 09:01:54 PM »
Yep, my personal favorite is Crankshaft Dave at Mile High Crankshaft in Denver.  Have had several in there to get them back to usable.
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.