Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 814107 times)

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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3045 on: February 16, 2018, 10:35:09 PM »
The new bolts are used with new bearing shells for the first trial.  Prussian blue is spread on the housings and the bolts are tightened down to Triumph's original torque spec.  The cases are taken apart and the shells are removed.  They are not seating correctly.  There are two big problems with this.  One is poor heat transfer from the shells to the case.  The other is extra openings to bleed off oil and this lowers the oil pressure at the rod big end.

The process is repeated with Triumph's latest tightening procedure which is pre-torque followed by degree of turn.  The shells seat when the new procedure is used.

The flaking on the rod big end shells happened when I was using the old torque specs with 10W-40 synthetic, and uncoated shells.  The distress was reduced last year by using coated shells and thicker oil.  Hopefully the new uncoated shells combined with the thicker oil and the latest bolts and torque specs will eliminate rod big end bearing distress.

Offline charlie101

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3046 on: February 17, 2018, 01:45:20 AM »
Wow. That makes a difference. Thanks for showing the research, method and result! I find it always interesting!

« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 01:46:58 AM by charlie101 »

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3047 on: February 18, 2018, 09:48:11 AM »
The leap from qualitative to quantitive reasoning could not be done.

Qualitative:  The rod big ends can be honed to larger inside diameter to make room for bearing shells with polymer coatings.  Heat transfer from the shells to the rods and the resistance of the shells to spinning in the big ends are somewhat dependent on crush.

Quanitative:  How much crush does it have now?  How much does it need to be?  How much bore enlarging will be too much?  All of this is needed to verify if the big ends can be enlarged.  I could not find any info about how to do this.

Qualitative:  The crankcase is made from a metal that expands thermally twice as much or more than metal used for the crankcase bolts, bearing shells, and the crankshaft.  Hot running clearances might differ than cold clearances when the engine parts are measured in the cellar.  Some allowances may need to be made.

Qualitative:  This needs to be figured out.  Again, I could not find the procedures to do the measurements and the math.

The end result is simply doing what Triumph did and that is using late model bolts, bearing shells and tightening procedure.  The last was modified slightly using recommendations from the Triumph flat track engine builder.  It would have been a big mess if Triumph did not do what they did and I was on my own to figure out a solution.  It was a humbling experience.

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3048 on: February 18, 2018, 11:28:57 AM »
WW, another useful source if you haven't found it: http://www.kingbearings.com/technical-info/

All models are wrong, but some are useful! G.E. Box (1967) www.designdreams.biz

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3049 on: February 25, 2018, 10:37:16 AM »
Thanks for posting this.  The "Design of Crush Height for Performance Bearings" article is most useful.  It appears that altering shell to journal clearances by enlarging the housing bore is a very risky option and this is especially true with aluminum housings.  The less problematic alternatives are to find oversize or undersize shells or to adjust the journal diameters.

The relationship between shell bearing internal diameter, crush, and housing temperature is the critical piece of information I cannot find.  Time determines the strategy.  The engine is being put together and it will be run for a hundred miles on break in oil with reduced spring pressure to bed in the cams and tappet buckets.  Then race oil and springs will be installed.  Next will be the dyno work and two runs down the salt.

The engine be taken apart next winter and the bearings examined.  The wear marks will tell me about clearances and any changes I need to make.  Of course, the motor might decide to dissemble itself before winter...   


Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3050 on: March 17, 2018, 06:00:30 PM »
The engine is together with light valve springs installed to polish in the cams.  The changes this year are going from a 360 degree firing order to a 270-450 arrangement with the counterbalancers removed.  Also the cam timing is advanced in an attempt to regain lost torque at mid range.  The basic engine is a 2003 T-100 and the new parts are from a 2015 Scrambler and various other engines.  The fitting of parts form later to earlier engines was a big challenge with lots of machining.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3051 on: March 18, 2018, 01:54:13 PM »
The bike frame is hung from the roof of the boat shed.  The engine is done and now it is time to figure out the electricals.  The mechanical parts were relatively easy to get for low to no cost.  Some folks helped me with this.  The electrical stuff was a different tale.  There are three sources of original Triumph parts for this conversion, the Bonneville America, the Bonneville Speedmaaster, and the Bonneville Scrambler.  All need to be carb models.

The alternator rotor is from a 2004 Bonneville America and it was sourced on E-Bay. 

The America/Speedmaster versions are chopper type bakes.  Their wiring harness will not fit a normal style Bonneville.  The Scrambler harness will work.  This one was ordered new.  It was hard to find and it took a long time to get.  It was found in the UK.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3052 on: March 18, 2018, 02:04:41 PM »
The bike that is being modified is a T-100 model with the ignition module under the seat.  The Scrambler has the module between the main frame tube and the engine.  This new mount is OEM Triumph for a Scrambler.  I was too lazy to make one.

This German ignition coil and wire setup has worked very well.  The wires are being reused.  The T-100 uses a single coil and the Scrambler/Speedmaster/America engine uses two, so some new ones were ordered.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3053 on: March 18, 2018, 02:21:32 PM »
At least five ignition modules with slightly different advance curves are needed to obtain the data points to select the optimum ignition timing.  The old 360 degree boxes could not be reprogrammed so I ordered five new ones.  They are a Stage 3 curve that has worked well in the past with -4, -2, 0, +2, and +4 degree retards and advances.  The rev limiter is at 9,000 rpm now.  It might be changed to 9,500 or 10,000rpm once all reliability issues are resolved such as rod big end shell fatigue.

The plugs that seem to work best are NGK SIKR 9A7.  These have fine iridium wire center electrodes, platinum tipped ground electrodes, and projecting tips.  They do not appear to wear or corrode from race fuel blends.  The set I have will last to the end of my racing career.


Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3054 on: March 24, 2018, 05:27:49 PM »
The frame was powder coated by Triumph.  Salty water gets under the paint and it causes bad corrosion.  Bubbly paint is the clue.  Every few years the delaminated paint is scratched off with a dental pick.  The rusty areas are cleaned with a little donut shaped wheel on a Dremel tool.  Red rusty metal primer is applied first, then grey primer, and then satin black.  This seems to work best.  I would sandblast off all of the powder coat and put on an etch primer and urethane topcoat before building the race bike based on experience.  This would save a lot of work in the long term.

A visit was made to a race dyno shop this morning and time is booked in July.  The shop is not the closest or the cheapest.  The business does race bikes, only, and the operator is one of the most experienced in Oregon.   

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3055 on: March 25, 2018, 12:18:00 PM »
The bikes that are beating me are v-twins.  One is a late model Aprilia and the other is a Suzuki homogulation super bike from the late 1990's.  Either one is stock or slightly modified.  Both can make good speed with the less than optimal track conditions we have now.  These bikes have things in common, like light wheels, sophisticated suspension, lots of power, strong frames, and smaller riders with good tucks.  The first two I can get.  The third is about as good as I can get.  The last two are impossible with me riding the thing.

There are no more records for me.  These guys and gals raised the bar too high.  What I can do is take some lessons from this into my last few races and get a respectable personal best speed.  The frame is bare and hanging from the ceiling of the boat shed.  Everything going onto it is being checked for overweightness and is trimmed down like this steering stem.  Non-essential parts are removed.

This is the perfect time to upgrade to EFI.  A lot of parts I scrounged like a gas tank with a fuel pump inside of it and an EFI alternator rotor.  A way to hack into the EFI programming was found and I monkeyed around a lot with it on the street bike.  It was time to make the switch.  Then, I recalled all of the people I saw on the salt with EFI problems they could not figure out and electronical stuff is my weak point.  So, a carb wiring harness and carb alternator rotor were bought.  The big Mikunis will stay on.  The last few years will be spent adapting to new conditions with attention to the chassis and aero.     

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3056 on: March 26, 2018, 03:51:17 PM »
Last year the front streamlining was used and not the rear.  The bike was more nose-heavy than usual and it had twenty more horsepower and the track was very rough.  The tach needle hit redline and back pedaling could not get traction.  I would have been over 165 mph and in record city if there was no wheel spin and instead I did 145 mph.  There would have been major wheelspin associated with going 145 using 165 mph gearing.  The bike tracked straight and there was no fishtailing.  Maybe the clutch was slipping?

There were shock loads on the drivetrain from bouncing in and out of the dips and the oil I used was 15W-50 for aluminum block car engines.  It might have so many friction modifiers in the oil that the shock on the drive line caused by hitting the bumps made the clutch to slip and it would not regrip.  The oil should be switched back to a bike oil made specifically for wet clutch engines.       

This is advice from last night given by the guys at the local.  Today I have a mild hangover and a possible cause and solution to the big problem.   

Offline RansomT

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3057 on: March 26, 2018, 04:06:45 PM »
Last year the front streamlining was used and not the rear.  The bike was more nose-heavy than usual and it had twenty more horsepower and the track was very rough.  The tach needle hit redline and back pedaling could not get traction.  I would have been over 165 mph and in record city if there was no wheel spin and instead I did 145 mph.  There would have been major wheelspin associated with going 145 using 165 mph gearing.  The bike tracked straight and there was no fishtailing.  Maybe the clutch was slipping?

There were shock loads on the drivetrain from bouncing in and out of the dips and the oil I used was 15W-50 for aluminum block car engines.  It might have so many friction modifiers in the oil that the shock on the drive line caused by hitting the bumps made the clutch to slip and it would not regrip.  The oil should be switched back to a bike oil made specifically for wet clutch engines.       

This is advice from last night given by the guys at the local.  Today I have a mild hangover and a possible cause and solution to the big problem.   

Dyno time will tell you if the clutch is slipping.  High Gear pulls and a knowledge of what MPH at a specific RPM will tell.  And yes, I would definitely use a quality motorcycle race oil.  Alisyn makes a 15w40 that might just be your best bet.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3058 on: March 27, 2018, 09:23:48 PM »
Everything looked OK when it was on the dyno, although I do not remember if the mineral break in oil was in the bike or the synthetic.  I might try the Alysin.  Unfortunately I bought a box of other oil about an hour ago before logging onto the forum.

The oil I was using was a 15W-50 made for NASCAR racing.  Most bike oils are going away from using zinc and phosphorous and I was using the car oil to make sure there was a lot of it.  Maybe this is a bad idea.

The tuning shop where I booked the dyno session sold a French oil I do not know much about.  Some rocket-science reasoning told me this might work.  Most of the bikes in that place were higher performance than mine.  So, I did some research on the I-net and the company recommends a specific 10W-40 racing oil for my bike.  Somewhere I recalled seeing that oil's name.  They carry it in the closest bike shop to my house.  So, a case was bought there at racer discount.  The tech data sheet with the oil makes a big deal about it working with wet clutches.  Things will be better this year, for sure.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #3059 on: April 07, 2018, 01:04:30 AM »
A London taxi in the jungle on the far end of Maui.  This is a few hundred yards from where Charles Lindburgh the aviator is buried.  The world is an odd place and full of unexpected things.