Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 782407 times)

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Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2820 on: June 17, 2017, 06:23:02 PM »
I can tell, you're fully up to speed on the system.  :-D :-D :-D

Pete

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2821 on: June 19, 2017, 12:03:55 AM »
The 304 taiwan tube was discussed at yesterday's welding class.  It is a welded seam tube.  The Burn's tubing is seamless.  The extrusion to make seamless tube gives it strength and toughness.  It also has tighter tolerances than the welded seam tubing.  The 304 designation is for alloy content and stainless steel having many different properties can be 304.  It is totally legit for welded seam 304 to not be as tough as seamless 304.  Seamless 304 should be chosen if dimensional tolerances and strength and toughness are a concern, I was told.

Country of origin was discussed.  Bad experiences were noted with Korean, Indian, and Pakastani steel.  Chinese and Tiawan steel could be good or bad.   European steel, and especially Finnish tubing, is good.  Chromium is a big ingredient.  SA is a big source.  Aparthied and concerns about political correctness dried up the sources of this element in this country.  Stainless steel production was crippled and never recovered.  A lot of good stainless comes from overseas.  They did not have to deal with the PC issue, it was said.

Gringo steel tubing has the ASTM designation stamped on it.  Furrin tubing might not, I was told.  The wrapper was taken the Taiwan tube when I got home.  There was an ASTM designation and heat number on a sticker.

The tubing I have is probably pretty good and much better than I thought.  Tomorrow I will post some of the other advice I got. 

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2822 on: June 30, 2017, 09:48:32 AM »
The advice I got was to stick to seamless tube if I am fussy about dimensions and wall thicknesses.  It is stronger than welded tube due to its manufacturing process.  The ASTM specs are pretty broad, I was told, and it is good if the tube meets them.  One fellow said that I need to work with the engineering and sales folks of a reputable tube manufacturer to get exactly what is best for the application and to buy it from the closest vendor they ship to.

The last day in welding class was interesting.  We could switch to a process other than what we enrolled to learn.  TIG welding stainless steel sheet was my choice.  I can see why people like this method more than MIG.

My welds are "rough" according to the instructor.  He was looking at the lobster back welding i did at home.  Those welds were done using 0.023 wire fed from the rollers on the welder.  A spool gun was bought and used for aluminum welding.  The 0.023 stainless wire was put into the spool gun and the gas was switched from argon to tri-mix.  The welds on stainless with the spool gun are much better and more consistent.  There might be a problem with the wire feed on the welding machine that prevents it from feeding the wire at a consistent rate.

Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2823 on: June 30, 2017, 10:10:12 AM »
I found the rollers on my MIG would slip some with .023 wire. The groove was .024 as checked with a feeler gauge. The wire was bottoming in the groove and the wheel still had the black coating so it wasn't worn. I took a piece of the .023 wire to the welding store. The wire was gripped on the sides on new roller. That seemed to solve the problem with the machine, the rest was me. :-D

Ron
Life is an abrasive. Whether you get ground away or polished to a shine depends on what you are made of.

Offline tauruck

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2824 on: July 02, 2017, 10:04:33 PM »
The 304 taiwan tube was discussed at yesterday's welding class.  It is a welded seam tube.  The Burn's tubing is seamless.  The extrusion to make seamless tube gives it strength and toughness.  It also has tighter tolerances than the welded seam tubing.  The 304 designation is for alloy content and stainless steel having many different properties can be 304.  It is totally legit for welded seam 304 to not be as tough as seamless 304.  Seamless 304 should be chosen if dimensional tolerances and strength and toughness are a concern, I was told.

Country of origin was discussed.  Bad experiences were noted with Korean, Indian, and Pakastani steel.  Chinese and Tiawan steel could be good or bad.   European steel, and especially Finnish tubing, is good.  Chromium is a big ingredient.  SA is a big source.  Aparthied and concerns about political correctness dried up the sources of this element in this country.  Stainless steel production was crippled and never recovered.  A lot of good stainless comes from overseas.  They did not have to deal with the PC issue, it was said.

Gringo steel tubing has the ASTM designation stamped on it.  Furrin tubing might not, I was told.  The wrapper was taken the Taiwan tube when I got home.  There was an ASTM designation and heat number on a sticker.

The tubing I have is probably pretty good and much better than I thought.  Tomorrow I will post some of the other advice I got. 

We have some good local stainless here. I like the German stuff from Guth but Jaguar Stainless Steel sells good quality. Some of the "other" material isn't pure. I'm no world champ on welding but even I can tell the difference. Back purge if you can. Vince Roman from Burns will always give you free advice. He's  agreat guy IMO.



Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2825 on: July 04, 2017, 03:32:12 PM »
Ron, the rollers were checked and they are OK.  There is some restriction in the gun that is causing the jerky feed.  Figuring that out is an AB (After Bonneville) project.  The spool gun will be used now.

Mike, I am going to use Burns.  Their stuff looks good.

The lower bends in the header were made by cutting sections out of the middle of two 90 degree bends to make two 64 degree bends.  The stretched metal on the outsides of the bends was very thin compared to the thicker compacted metal on the insides of the bends.  This variable metal thickness did not weld up very well with the wire feed welder.

The bends were cut out and I made up a lobster back bend for one of them.  The welds were ugly so I ground them flush.  That was a mistake.  There were some areas with less than full penetration and the metal was too thin there after the grinding.  The lobster back section was weak.

A fellow told me to never grind a weld flush unless I am absolutely sure it is a full penetration weld.  He showed me how to polish down the welds and to leave them protruding at the beads.  That is what you see here.  These two lobster back lower sections are plenty strong. 

Note the splice locations on this professionally made pipe.  They are at the ends of the bends where the metal is of even thickness all of the way around.   

Offline tauruck

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2826 on: July 04, 2017, 06:35:26 PM »
There can't be a more exciting and rewarding sport than LSR even though I've never turned a wheel.
See how we all learn, grow and keep the brain working. This is awesome.

Bo, I love the way you research EVERYTHING. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2827 on: July 15, 2017, 12:13:00 AM »
The engineering crew was not called out for this so I did not see it in person.  The maintenance and hazmat guys and ladies had to clean it up.  www.bbc.com/news/world/us-canada-40605743

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2828 on: July 16, 2017, 10:32:53 AM »
The correct address is www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40605743

Most headers have equal length primary pipes.  How critical is this?  The nearside primary pipe is done and it takes the shortest route possible to the collector.  It will be hard to make the offside primary pipe as long as it.  The offside exhaust port is much closer to the collector. 

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2829 on: July 16, 2017, 11:21:02 AM »
That's why good headers generally look like a bundle of snakes. It takes a lot of indirect routing to get everything the same length. A set of V-8 headers takes a lot of planning to make an effective set of the desired length and make them all the same length.

Having different lengths is going to make a different power band for each cylinder. Your power band will likely be broader while sacrificing some top end.

Pete

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2830 on: July 16, 2017, 03:37:11 PM »
Thanks, Pete.  Your post gave me an idea.  The Toshiba did the figuring.  The digitized cam profiles and measured header dimensions were input into the Dynomation model.  I made best guess at the short pipe length.  The Row 11 is crank HP at Bonneville climate conditions with the short 23-inch primary pipe.  Row 12 is with the longer 27.125 inch primary.  The wave dynamics analysis says equal power with either.  Considering how little time there is between now and race day and the vast amount of work I need to get done, this goofy primary pipe setup will be "good enough."  Fabbing up equal length primaries are a 2018 project and hopefully with TIG.

Offline tauruck

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2831 on: July 16, 2017, 04:57:34 PM »
Headers!!!!!!
Tough job but thank the Lord, you only have two pipes
and it's not a 2 stroke.
Bo, I just love your attention to detail. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2832 on: July 23, 2017, 09:27:42 AM »
It has taken a very long time to make these.  It is nice to only need two.

The exhaust system is done and wrapped.  The cylinder head arrived on Friday.  The bike will be run on the street with only the outer springs and no shims to polish the cam lobes.  The rpm will be kept under 4,000 so there should not be any valve float issues.  These low bars will go on for this.  These will be used when I go to the UK.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2833 on: July 29, 2017, 12:30:12 AM »
A valve train failure scrapped my chances at Bonneville last year.  It was an expensive issue, for sure.  It was after the time for refunds when I found the problem and my full FIM entry fee was a "donation."  That is some serious motivation to fix the problem.

A definite cause of the tappet bucket pitting and cam lobe tip galling was not found.  There might be multiple reasons for it.  The cam lobes were tall and it appeared they were running off the buckets on the intake and almost running off on the exhaust.  The intake net lift was .445 inches and the exhaust .412 inches.  The head does not flow well at lifts beyond .4 inches so it appeared little would be lost by using shorter cams.  These tall cams were reground to give .400 net lift intake and .398 net lift exhaust.  This reduces the chances of the lobes running off of the buckets and it reduces nose pressure.

The buckets were trashed and they were a bit loose in their bores from years of racing.  The bores were enlarged 2 mm and wider buckets fitted.  This helps to assure the cam contact surfaces stay away from the bucket edges.

The spring package was a generic one for race use.  Kibblewhite used a digital model of the cams in a computer analysis to select springs that are not excessively stiff for the rpm and cams.  Lighter outer springs were fitted and this reduces nose pressure significantly.

The valves are a direct path for heat between the combustion chamber and the tappet buckets.  The outer and inner valve faces, ports, and combustion chambers are ceramic coated to reduce heat transfer to the tappet buckets.  This will keep them cooler.  It will help maintain oil viscosity and film thickness between the cam lobes and the bucket faces.

The valves are set up without the inner springs and shims.  Tomorrow I will ride around town at low rpm to polish the cams.  Then, the full spring package will be fitted.  This should also help to prevent galling and pitting. 

Offline RansomT

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2834 on: July 29, 2017, 09:35:19 AM »
Looks Good!

For what it is worth: a few years back, I pulled a set of race cams out of a Hayabusa.  The exhaust cam and 5 lobes of the intake were perfect.  However, the other 3 lobes and buckets where chewed up.  I sent the intake to the maker of the cams, their comment was the wrong kind of oil was used.  I know for a fact, after dyno break-in, the engine only saw Amsoil.  Furthermore, why would only 3 intake lobes be pitted and not the rest?  I still suspect some quality control issues with the cam manufacture.