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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 782502 times)

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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2460 on: July 19, 2016, 09:48:20 PM »
Hi Mike.  The competition are these fast Italian twin cylinder bikes like Ducati's and Aprilias with young folks turning the throttle.  The people that design them get paid for their efforts and have the latest computer programs, young and nimble brains, etc.  The only way I can counteract this is to work late into the night, stay focused, use wily methods, and attend to details.  Yes, I am tired.  There will be plenty of time to rest when I am "pushing up the daises," as they say.  Both of us think alike, in this respect.

Progress is being made...

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2461 on: July 22, 2016, 09:34:48 AM »
Gravity fed carbs are the system here.  It is the most reliable method if a fellow remembers to turn on the tap before starting the engine.  This bike runs fuel and the cock has the remote shut off.  This is a guzzler and they are rebuildable.  The manufacturer sells different bottom parts for much less cost than the whole assembly.  I did not do this.  Instead, I modified it myself.  It had two fuel line spigots.  One was drilled out and replaced by a threaded brass plug.  The other was drilled out and replaced by a threaded hole.  Another threaded hole was made in the bottom.  1/8 inch pipe threads are as big as one can go, sizewise.

The fuel cock should be on the tank and the tank on the bike when the manifolds are designed.  There is very little clearance.  The shop that sold me the carbs included some nice manifolds with rubber hoses and their lengths can be adjusted to put the carbs in the right place.  The inlet ports on this bike are too large to use those spigots so I used my old manifolds.  Larger rubber spigots are available from Mikuni so I removed the old ones for the 39mm carbs, put on new spigots for 45mm mixers, and ported the manifolds to match the spigots.

There was a lot of comparison shopping for fuel line fittings.  I looked at standard plumbing parts and Army and Navy items.  These A and N fittings made by XRP in the USA had the largest holes and best workmanship.

 

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2462 on: July 22, 2016, 09:54:46 AM »
The carbs are tall and the gas tank needs to be pulled back and up to be removed.  Any fitting on the bottom of the cock needs to be short so this can be done.  This elbow was ground down and the hole threaded large to do this.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2463 on: July 22, 2016, 10:10:39 AM »
This is the other fitting.  The sealer is an equivalent to hylomar.  The owner of our local hot rod speed shop helped me with this.  The teflon tape I had been using can lose fragments that can hold the needle valve open.  He recommended this sealer.

The fuel line is #5 (5/16 diameter).  Number 5 fittings have internal diameters much less than this.  Number 6 (3/8 inch) fittings are used to keep the inside diameter near 5/16.  These reducer fittings were made up to change from one fuel line size to the other.  The larger lines are near the tank where the fittings are.

It is very hard to get fittings.  The local stores have gone to computer based inventories and they only stock what they sell.  Of course, since they only sell what they stock, their inventory shrinks considerably.  Only the most popular items are on the shelves.  A lathe and bars of brass are the only way a racer can get the fittings they need right away without resorting to mail order.


Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2464 on: July 22, 2016, 10:12:31 AM »
This is the fuel lines ready to go.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2465 on: July 23, 2016, 11:03:17 AM »
The guzzler fuel cocks are hard to assemble.  They are sort of like a spring loaded sandwich of gaskets and parts.  It is easy to have a gasket shifted out of place and drive a screw through it.  I did this and the fuel cock leaks.  Spare gaskets are a mail order item. 

Break in day was supposed to be Friday.  Plumbing supply houses had enough parts to make a temporary fowl system.  The miniature ball valve is an in-stock item the store keeps on hand for the wine and beer making folks.

Today will be when the rings get seated.  My reflexes and mental state needs to be at its peak.  So, Rose and I went to the Grateful Dead show in Portland and I got back at 2 in the morning.  It was the first concert since legalization.  i think I was still high when I got up out of bed.  Now I am completely straight and totally relaxed with absolutely no motivation. 

Offline Koncretekid

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2466 on: July 23, 2016, 01:58:39 PM »
Bo,
As I run out of options for getting more hp and mph out the old Beezer, I've thought about moving to fuel, or at least methanol (as I now find myself out of spare cases).  The remote closing Pingel has got some thought, but I hate the price.  So I thought I might just try rigging up a standard shut-off valve using a choke handle and cable from a British bike. After seeing what you've had to come up with, I'll think more about a Rube Goldberg shut-off.  I am definitely a veritable cheapskate!
Tom
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Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2467 on: July 23, 2016, 10:02:53 PM »
Bo,
As I run out of options for getting more hp and mph out the old Beezer, I've thought about moving to fuel, or at least methanol (as I now find myself out of spare cases).  The remote closing Pingel has got some thought, but I hate the price.  So I thought I might just try rigging up a standard shut-off valve using a choke handle and cable from a British bike. After seeing what you've had to come up with, I'll think more about a Rube Goldberg shut-off.  I am definitely a veritable cheapskate!
Tom

That's what Brian and I  both did with our bikes. Use bicycle cable since it's thinner, easier to work with, makes tighter bends, and is available in bulk lengths of separate sleeve and cable. Use a shift control lever that clamps onto the bar, you can work it with your finger or thumb. Easy to work with and works well to shut off, but you will still need to turn the valve to open it.
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2468 on: July 24, 2016, 12:52:54 AM »
The fuel valve is the least of my troubles.  The high lift exhaust cam was put in as an intake cam.  It has more duration than the old intake cam.  1/4 of the added duration was used to close the intake valve later.  I did this imbalance of added duration to keep the dynamic compression ratio reasonable.  The other 3/4 of added duration was added to the overlap.

This morning the bike trailer was hooked up to Rose's truck and the toolbox was tossed in the back of the truck with some tie downs.  She followed me and I made the 45 mile test loop around Silverton and Silver Falls Park.  The bike runs great.  It really pulls hard.  That added intake duration and lift is a big, big, help.

Experience of the worst kind has told me to always check new cams to make sure they are bedding in and polishing up properly.  The valve cover was removed after the ride.  The inner intake lobes are just starting to wear through their hardening.  All four of the new tappet buckets are trashed.  The cam grinder gave me some strict break in instructions and I followed them perfectly. I do not understand what is happening.  The old lower lift intake cam is back in the bike now.

Offline Koncretekid

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2469 on: July 24, 2016, 06:15:28 AM »
Bo, I don't have any experience with the overhead cam bikes other than single overhead cams, so I can't offer anything more than the obvious.  That is, you are not running out of clearance at full lift?  I'm pretty sure you didn't flog it on a street ride, so I can't see anything like valve float or valve lofting happening.  Does the exhaust cam have the same dimensions as the intake cam in regards to center to center of lobes or any different dimensions regarding lobe to center of bucket?  How about end play of the cam?  You must feel like a guinea pig for the cam grinding people!
Tom
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2470 on: July 24, 2016, 08:05:22 AM »
Bo, Tom,

This is from a post on the midget's build diary, 2015.   Pretty sure it applies in this instance regarding break-in @ reduced valve spring pressure.    I realize this is of little help now, but perhaps it will help in the future.

BTW, this applies to ALL flat tappet cams, not just OHC.   ANY steel cam must go though a careful "break-in" (more correctly a "bed-in") process.     Also, if your failed tappets are hardened through, and are thick enough, they can be refaced and/or re-lapped.     I do it all the time.    Any defect(s) found on the cam lobe must be carefully stoned and polished off.    ANY sharp edges on the cam lobe can act as a cutting tool on the tappet . . . . . . .      Insist that your cam grinder deburr and polish the lobe edges of your cam.    Alternatively, the lobe edges can be chamfered and polished.

Yes, I am aware that I am hyper-anal about this issue.    I am also tired of steel cam failures where the cam grinder shirks any responsibility.

 :cheers:
Fordboy



I hear you. My pistons were to be 2 weeks, took 6. Cams are now at 3.5 months and still going strong...... :-P

Mr Fordboy, while you are hanging about here, I know you have more experience with pushrod type engines than DOHC stuff with direct tappets or followers but do you have thoughts about breaking in new cams in this setting (direct tappets in this case),. I know regular flat tappet cams take a lot of babying in many situations to avoid wiping the lobes but with DOHC direct, the tappets don't rotate, are flat, but the actual load is much less. Less spring pressure, no rocker arm to multiply load on the lifter etc. Other than assembly lube in general would you do anything special lube/oil wise as is often suggested with pushrod flat tappets? Though way down the road for you and Midget, it does apply..... :cheers:

Jack,

As a matter of fact, back in the 80's and early 90's when I founded and owned PHP Racengines, I seem to remember building & dyno'ing about 100 Lotus TwinCams & Cosworth BD & FV variants, all with bucket "flat" tappets.    There can be problems with these types of valve trains.

My thoughts:

1]  Chilled iron cams with steel tappets have better "compatibility" than steel cams with steel tappets.
2]  Contact pressure is also a factor for break-in, I insist on running in on lowered valve spring pressure, NO MATTER HOW MUCH TROUBLE IT IS TO CHANGE VALVE SPRINGS.
     It is worth the effort.    I usually remove the inner spring, minimum, for "break-in".    Break-in rpm needs to be carefully controlled at reduced spring pressures.
3]  If the tappet is dead flat, I request the cam lobes be ground with "extra" lobe taper and/or offset, to spin the lifter.    NO tappet will survive without rotation.
4]  If the cam grinder recommends against a "flat" tappet, inquire as to whether they can spherically grind the tappet to a radius they recommend for "their" lobe taper.   If
     not, Dema Elgin can spherically grind tappets to a variety of radii.    One might inquire whether he has a setup for the tappet diameter you are using if you need this done.
5]  I had steel cams nitrided after grinding.
6]  "Parkerizing" of steel cams lobes and steel tappet surfaces is also a good idea that helps lubrication.    Chilled cast iron cams may not need this process.   DLC coatings
     are now being used to help with some of this, but I do not have any experience with them in this application.    Compatibility is a huge factor with DLC.    And it is
     expensive.
7]  My experience is that the tappets need to be about 54/58 Rc hardness.    Harder is not a problem on the tappet, I've used parts as hard as 65 Rc.
8]  Cams need to be 4/5 Rc hardness points softer than the tappet.    Cams/tappets at the same hardness are usually a problem.
9]  Rc hardness is relative, and can be less if the cam lobe nose "contact pressure" is less or low.    Good cam grinders can advise a user on this.    HIGH contact pressures,
     as in high velocity/acceleration cam lobes, with high valve spring pressures, and high valve train mass, need "harder" parts, and even this might not prevent wear.
10] I always insist on a cam break-in lube with "moly", generously applied during assembly.    Don't go nuts, but thoroughly coat both the lobes & tappets.
11] I always add a ZDDP additive on top of the moly assembly lubed lobes & tappets.    I tend to drown the parts.    This is only for flat tappet cams.
12] I like regular racing oil for "break-in" as opposed to break-in oils.    I worry about bearings too.    I tend to use lighter weight, multi-grade oils.   There is so much new
      information out there, or on the web, I would advise being careful with oil choice.    I tend to go for oils with higher film strength, because I am an advocate of "lower" oil
      pressure in general.

All of this will apply to the new engine for the Milwaukee Midget.    It is going to be interesting . . . . . .
 :cheers:
Fordboy
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 11:32:42 PM by fordboy628 »
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2471 on: July 24, 2016, 09:05:49 AM »
Today Rose and I will make another pass through the test loop to make sure the rings are seated.  The old cams are polished up by years of use so there should be no problems, there.  Tonight the conventional break in oil will be dumped and the synthetic will go in.  Dyno day is tomorrow.

The cams will be a project for next year.

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2472 on: July 24, 2016, 07:52:54 PM »
Have you and your advisers considered 'beehive' springs?
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2473 on: July 25, 2016, 11:24:44 PM »
Yesterday the break in was finished with another loop around Silver falls Park and Silverton.  The old intake cam was used.  The bike went on the dyno today.  It makes 3 more horsepower than before at 1000 rpm higher.  Peak torque is lower.  We tried jungle juice.  It does nothing.  That bike likes Sunoco Supreme or Standard.  A trip to Bonneville is not worthwhile.  I am tired and broke.  The possibility of further progress ended when the new cam ate the new lifters.  I will not be riding the bike at the speed trials this year.

The guy that sold me the cams should have told me about the need for bigger tappet buckets and special break in procedures.  He didn't.  There will be no more dealings with him.  The lifters and cam will go to Kibblewhite for a post-mortem exam and we will work from there.  I will try hand calcs and virtual modeling to rough in the lifts, timing, and durations I need.  Then, an expert needs to work up the details like valve train acceleration and deceleration, etc.  Then the springs need to be checked to make sure they are optimal.  Finally, some cams and lifters will be made.  The name "Dema Elgin" has been mentioned by more than one person.  That might be a good source of help.

It looks like I have the crap beaten out of me, its time to go into the corner, and to come back out when the bell rings. 

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2474 on: July 26, 2016, 07:47:18 AM »
Yesterday the break in was finished with another loop around Silver falls Park and Silverton.  The old intake cam was used.  The bike went on the dyno today.  It makes 3 more horsepower than before at 1000 rpm higher.  Peak torque is lower.  We tried jungle juice.  It does nothing.  That bike likes Sunoco Supreme or Standard.  A trip to Bonneville is not worthwhile.  I am tired and broke.  The possibility of further progress ended when the new cam ate the new lifters.  I will not be riding the bike at the speed trials this year.

The guy that sold me the cams should have told me about the need for bigger tappet buckets and special break in procedures.  He didn't.  There will be no more dealings with him.  The lifters and cam will go to Kibblewhite for a post-mortem exam and we will work from there.  I will try hand calcs and virtual modeling to rough in the lifts, timing, and durations I need.  Then, an expert needs to work up the details like valve train acceleration and deceleration, etc.  Then the springs need to be checked to make sure they are optimal.  Finally, some cams and lifters will be made.  The name "Dema Elgin" has been mentioned by more than one person.  That might be a good source of help.

It looks like I have the crap beaten out of me, its time to go into the corner, and to come back out when the bell rings.


Bo,

Take a "mental health" and "wallet" break.

When you have "recovered", please post up the data from the dyno session.    Might it be possible to include the old dyno data as well?

 :cheers:
Mark
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein