(Note: Donations are not tax deductible)




Forum's been "upgraded".
Things will look a bit different.
A *few* posts might have gotten lost in the crossover.
PM bobc with problems, or post in "Website Suggestions".

Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 774450 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2370 on: March 26, 2016, 09:07:00 PM »
The bearing expert reviewed my history for choosing oils and recommended that I stick with one brand.  My feeling is this is a good recommendation.  The previous oil is never completely drained from an engine and it might not be compatible with the new stuff that is poured in.  I mentioned I was using Joe Gibbs assembly lube as well as Yamalube four stroke oil for break in and Mobil 1 or Penrite for racing.  He used Mobil 1 and recommended it.  He gave me a gave me a contact number at Joe Gibbs.

The bike lubes the transmission and clutch with the engine oil and it is a flat tappet engine.  10W-40 is recommended by the manufacturer.  It is difficult to find assembly lube, break in oil, and race oil all made by the same manufacturer and also bike compatible.  This is the oil system I chose.

The machinist recommended special made-for-purpose lube for the bearing shells.  He said the lube needs to stay in the bearings for days or weeks before the engine is started.  It also needs do dissolve quickly in oil when the motor is started.  He used some stuff made by Clevite.  The lube he sold me was made for Federal Mogul.  He said it will do the job.

The assembly lube is Joe Gibbs.  The break in oil is 10W-40 Joe Gibbs conventional BR40.  It is made for break in, is suitable for flat tappet bike engines, and it can be used for the initial dyno work.

The race oil recommended by Joe Gibbs XP-4 15W-50.  It is suitable for bike engines.  They also said it will handle the fuel dilution from the nitropropane and toluene as well as provide protection during long full throttle runs.

Use of the same bike compatible brand lube for all major purposes was pretty difficult.  This is the system I will use this year.  One big factor in the choice of Joe Gibbs is the local speed shop stocks it so it is easy for me to get.  

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2371 on: March 26, 2016, 09:12:48 PM »
Dennis, that year and model is considered by many experts to be better than a Bonneville.  Make sure to post a picture when it is finished.  In the old days I rode and raced BSA A-65's and the single carb Thunderbolt was a lot smoother than the twin carb lightning...unless the special trick was when the bike was put together.

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2231
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2372 on: March 27, 2016, 10:21:46 AM »
The bearing expert reviewed my history for choosing oils and recommended that I stick with one brand.  My feeling is this is a good recommendation.  The previous oil is never completely drained from an engine and it might not be compatible with the new stuff that is poured in.  I mentioned I was using Joe Gibbs assembly lube as well as Yamalube four stroke oil for break in and Mobil 1 or Penrite for racing.  He used Mobil 1 and recommended it.  He gave me a gave me a contact number at Joe Gibbs.

The bike lubes the transmission and clutch with the engine oil and it is a flat tappet engine.  10W-40 is recommended by the manufacturer.  It is difficult to find assembly lube, break in oil, and race oil all made by the same manufacturer and also bike compatible.  This is the oil system I chose.

The machinist recommended special made-for-purpose lube for the bearing shells.  He said the lube needs to stay in the bearings for days or weeks before the engine is started.  It also needs do dissolve quickly in oil when the motor is started.  He used some stuff made by Clevite.  The lube he sold me was made for Federal Mogul.  He said it will do the job.

The assembly lube is Joe Gibbs.  The break in oil is 10W-40 Joe Gibbs conventional BR40.  It is made for break in, is suitable for flat tappet bike engines, and it can be used for the initial dyno work.

The race oil recommended by Joe Gibbs XP-4 15W-50.  It is suitable for bike engines.  They also said it will handle the fuel dilution from the nitropropane and toluene as well as provide protection during long full throttle runs.

Use of the same bike compatible brand lube for all major purposes was pretty difficult.  This is the system I will use this year.  One big factor in the choice of Joe Gibbs is the local speed shop stocks it so it is easy for me to get.  

Bo,

Good choices.    Compatibility is a much larger factor than most guys realize.   And, as you understand, bikes have different issues than V-8s, regarding oiling and break-in.

I also am currently using and recommending Joe Gibbs products.   They work, and are generally available.   

 :cheers:
Happy Easter!!
Fordboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2373 on: March 28, 2016, 11:50:06 PM »
The reprogrammed ignition modules came in the mail.  The base curve is developed by Triumph Performance for the engine setup I am using.  It is a "Stage 4" curve programmed for a 9,000 rpm rev limit.  Two Stage 3 modules were programmed with modified curves and on hand during the dyno work and at the speed trials when I was monkeying around with gasohol.  They had +2 and +4 degrees added advance and might help with the corn liquor/gasoline mix, I had hoped.  They are reprogrammed to be +2 and +4 for the Stage 4 curve.

The ceramic coatings can speed up combustion.  The fuel mixes I am using tend to burn faster than gasoline.  Prudence says to have some retarded modules on hand so the spark can be backed off.  She is probably correct, so four more were made with Stage 4 curves at -2, -4, -6, and -8 degrees.   All are lined up.  The gap is for the +0 Stage 4 module.  It is on the bike.

The standard Triumph carbs and the Keihin FCR flatslides have throttle position sensors (TPS).  These work with the modules to advance the spark during some conditions at partial throttle.  My TPS are disconnected.  I do not like to run with any more electronics than the bare minimum.  This is not a problem.  No TPS sensor input trips the modules into the full throttle settings.  That is where I should be.

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2374 on: March 29, 2016, 02:48:59 PM »
The Engine Pro software wants "throttle flow at 1.5 inches Hg"  My carbs are in Pacifica with the cylinder head and the machinist is trying to optimize flow.  I asked him to measure flow through the carb.  My question is, is this flow with the carb alone or with the intake runner and bell mouth attached.

This link shows that this make a big difference in flow. neverworld.net/socialnetscum/files/tech/CarbShoot.pdf 

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2375 on: March 29, 2016, 02:51:36 PM »
That link does not work.  Maybe this will.http://neverworld.net/socialnetscum/files/tech/CarbShoot.pdf

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2376 on: March 29, 2016, 02:55:20 PM »
It is "socalnetscum" and not "socialnetscum"  http://neverworld.net/socalnetscum/files/tech/CarbShoot.pdf 

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2231
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2377 on: March 29, 2016, 03:25:50 PM »
The Engine Pro software wants "throttle flow at 1.5 inches Hg"  My carbs are in Pacifica with the cylinder head and the machinist is trying to optimize flow.  I asked him to measure flow through the carb.  My question is, is this flow with the carb alone or with the intake runner and bell mouth attached.

This link shows that this make a big difference in flow. neverworld.net/socialnetscum/files/tech/CarbShoot.pdf 

Bo,

The conversion factor for Inches h2o to inches hg is 13.6087, so have your guy test at 20.4" h2o.

I'll look at the program for specifics, but I would use the complete inlet tract, carb bell to inlet valve.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2231
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2378 on: March 29, 2016, 03:37:31 PM »
I also have a lot of carb flow testing info on both the MM's thread and my thread, How do I make my Engine Better.    The info is Weber centric, but the principles are the same.   There are also photos of the adaptors I fabricate and use.

You might want to ask your guy to measure carb "signal" at the main jet or main jet well.   Should be photos of this as well.  Some "modified" carbs have a very poor "signal to flow ratio".    It's no fun to try to ride or drive those types of carbs.    Well modified carbs should have a similar signal to flow ratio as the unmodified units, although a "small" signal loss is acceptable for large flow increases.    If you don't need or can't use the extra flow though, poor signal ratio makes the carb perform poorly, and gives the rider/driver fits.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2379 on: March 29, 2016, 11:35:40 PM »
I will ask him to do that.

My first attempt at Engine Pro is giving me 57 horsepower for the 995 cc race motor.  I got more than that with the original 790 cc bone stock engine and a set of loud mufflers.  A lot of the input is being kicked out because it is "out of range."  Clearly this is a program for car motors.  Fortunately PipeMax came with the package and it works just great.  That is what I am using for this build.  This summer when I have more time I will input data from my old engine builds and monkey around with EnginePro until the results it says I will get are the same as the old dyno printouts.  Then, I can start to use it to make decisions.

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2231
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2380 on: March 30, 2016, 04:28:03 AM »
I will ask him to do that.

My first attempt at Engine Pro is giving me 57 horsepower for the 995 cc race motor.  I got more than that with the original 790 cc bone stock engine and a set of loud mufflers.  A lot of the input is being kicked out because it is "out of range."  Clearly this is a program for car motors.  Fortunately PipeMax came with the package and it works just great.  That is what I am using for this build.  This summer when I have more time I will input data from my old engine builds and monkey around with EnginePro until the results it says I will get are the same as the old dyno printouts.  Then, I can start to use it to make decisions.

Yes, that is how you do it.

Just be careful with PipeMax, as it is very V/E centric.    Again, the best way to get a handle on using it, is to model "backwards" from known, accurate dyno data.    When those agree, closely, you can then go forward with other "permutations".   Focus on getting the "cam/valve/head/total flow to "feed" the "flow demand" adequately.   This is usually more challenging than it sounds.

Best wishes on your learning curve!!    The key to a healthy mind is continued learning, at ANY age . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Fordboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2381 on: April 01, 2016, 11:39:22 PM »
Like you say, I worked into the VE backwards.  The peak horsepower rpm is 8,400 as an educated guess.  The intake flow is 212 CFM at maximum cam lift and 28 inches.  The engine BHP with this is 115.5 in the "Average" category.  That is about 104 rear wheel BHP which is realistic, with a 110.25% VE.

The intake valves go into curtain choke at 8,964 rpm and the exhaust valves at 8,374 rpm.  The rev limiter is at 9,000 so I want a bit more flow through the exhaust valve curtains. 

The program was run again with 2mm larger exhaust valves.  The exhaust valves curtain choke rpm went up to 9,011 rpm.  Now the curtain choke rpm's for both intake and exhaust valves are near the rev limit.

The program says I need a minimum intake flow of 228 CFM at maximum cam lift.  The 212 I have now is not enough.  The program says I need 172 cfm exhaust flow at max cam lift.  I have 183 now.

The bowls around the intake valves are poorly shaped.  I asked the machinist to clean them up.  I am pretty confident that will bring the intake port flow up to what I need.  The curtain choke rpm seems OK so I will stay with the 2mm larger intake valves I have now.

The exhaust valves have me confused.  They seem to work OK now based on flow test results.  The curtain area is a bit small based on calculations, so I asked him to put in some that are 2mm oversize.  They are standard size now.

I used PipeMax for this, not EnginePro.  PipeMax seems to work best for giving me realistic results although there are hundreds of numbers on these printouts and I only know what half of them mean.

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2382 on: April 03, 2016, 07:55:36 PM »
Carb cleaner and race gas dissolves civilian grade the engine paint.  The hippies made the government ban the ingredients that make the paint stick according to the paint shop guys.  A couple of auto paint shops recommended the paint shown.  The engine paint comes in brush form.  I like to spray mine and to make sure it gets in the nooks and crannies and seals the bolt heads from salt water intrusion.

We discussed the availability and application of spray paint for about ten minutes and I made the wrong conclusion.  I bought two can of hi temp aluminum colored paint.  Close reading of the label says I need to cure the parts at 400 degrees and I cannot do this with the engine.  Unfortunately the engine was painted when I discovered this minor detail.  The detail paint shown is what I shoulda used.

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4939
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2383 on: April 03, 2016, 08:02:34 PM »
This paint contains isocyanates.  I was warned about this on the forum and I discussed it with the fellows in the paint shop.  They do not used those cheesy little masks like shown in the kit on the previous post.  They use a full respirator with a dual filters for organics.  I bought one and used it and am alive now.  The paint laid down pretty good.  I am being careful not to scratch it.  It probably will harden up from the heat of the dyno sessions.     

Offline manta22

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3379
  • What, me worry?
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2384 on: April 03, 2016, 09:03:27 PM »
WW;

I painted my chassis with a 2- part polyurethane isocyanate that sounds similar. It's tough stuff; I applied it over a 2- part zinc chromate epoxy primer.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ