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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 774431 times)

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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2355 on: March 12, 2016, 07:51:39 PM »
Thanks, Mike.  I have a can of the spray and I will use it.

Lately I have been working overtime at the job.  That, and the election and having a son in Korea is a big distraction.  I am in no mood after work to do anything mental like assemble land speed racing motors.  It is something I need to do so i woke up early this morning, had a couple of cups of coffee and breakfast, and went down into the cellar.  Some relaxing tunes were playing on the ghetto blaster and I was ready to go.  "I am at my best.  There is no way I can screw anything up this morning.  This engine will be my best build."  I had a warm and fuzzy feeling of total satisfaction when I thunk this.

The crankcase halves were cleaned.  It was time to put in the main bearing shells.  Just to make sure everything was sanitary, I squirted carb cleaner down the oil feed holes for all four journals.  Then, after the compressor built up full pressure, I deftly inserted the rubber tip from the blow gun into an oil feed hole for a main journal...and pulled the trigger.  All of that carb cleaner in the passages blasted out the other three feed holes and right into my face.  I thought I was alert a few minutes before.  Now I was really awake.

Fortunately I was wearing glasses.  I shut my eyes and waited a few minutes and most of it evaporated away.  Then, I washed my eyes out and am back to as close to normal as i get.  Now I am staying with my normal routine of having a pint or two with dinner and working on the bike till midnight.  That early bird eager beaver carp is hazardous to the health.   

   

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2356 on: March 13, 2016, 03:25:42 PM »
You had me inspired.................for 10-seconds :dhorse:
2011 AMA Record - 250cc M-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 82.5 mph
2013 AMA Record - 250cc MPS-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 88.7 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 136.6 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 143.005 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 139.85 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 144.2025 mph

Chassis Builder / Tuner: Dave Murre

Offline tauruck

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2357 on: March 14, 2016, 12:03:00 AM »
Sounds like we live parallel lives?. Also got a ghetto blaster and lots of stuff distracts me too.
Nothing like getting blasted in the face with carb cleaner first thing in the morning hey Bo!!!
Bummer man. :-(
I've got goggles that you can use while wearing glasses. I use them now. BTW, did that Subaru
end up in your coffee as well?.

You always come good in the end so I have faith in you and thanks for the cool info and other stuff
on your build. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2358 on: March 14, 2016, 11:24:28 PM »
Hi Mike.  I wuz drinking something stiffer than coffee after that mess.  It might have been a good thing to make that big screw-up.  I slowed down and am double checking my work.

The book "The Horsepower Chain" came in today's mail.  The instructions say "Read the entire book." and "Read multiple times."  This is going to be tough.  My oldest daughter says that chocolate stimulates the brain and increases learning power.  So I have a great big chocolate bar and am getting ready to tackle the first page.       

 

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2359 on: March 19, 2016, 03:42:04 PM »
The rod bearing shells came back from PolyDyn.  The back sides are not coated.  The front sides are.  The shell thickness is increased .0004 to .0005 each.

A .0017 to .0022 shell to journal clearance is recommended by the formula the expert gave.  The plastigage shows clearance at .0017 with two coated shells.  My thinking is this is tight but the coatings will compact and bed in and a .0020 clearance or close to it will be what I get after break in.  I am tempted to use two coated shells.

Normally, with uncoated shells I would not do this and I would set the clearance for .0020 and not give an allowance for compaction or wear.

Does anyone have experience with this?   

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2360 on: March 21, 2016, 12:14:28 AM »
That video about Nish and his views on 2016 is pretty good.  He has an optimistic attitude.  The clean shop, liner ready to go, and engines lined up like bullets is pretty inspiring.  I need to clean up my rathole and get my one bike and engine ready to go.

The shells were installed with the minimum clearance under the assumption the coatings will compact and wear and I will have the clearance midway between too tight and too loose after break in.  This is a guesstimate on my part.  I have no advice about it.

I did all sorts of reading about coatings.  One reference said to use a skirt friction coating if a thermal barrier is used on the crown.  This was done on almost all examples I saw.  So, I did it, too.  Monkey see, monkey do.

The skirts and ring lands rub the cylinder walls with these pistons.  This is normal based on conversations with folks familiar with them.  The ring lands and skirts had the anti-friction coating.  Normally this is done on the skirts, only.

I did not want the ceramic coating on the crown to touch the bore and I asked them to keep the coating back away from the edges.  They used tape to do this.

Offline generatorshovel

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2361 on: March 21, 2016, 01:08:29 AM »
I hope you don't have this problem Bo,,,
Tiny (in OZ)
I would prefer to make horsepower, rather than buy, or hya it, regardless of the difficulties involved , as it would then be MINE

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2362 on: March 21, 2016, 07:26:23 AM »
The rod bearing shells came back from PolyDyn.  The back sides are not coated.  The front sides are.  The shell thickness is increased .0004 to .0005 each.

A .0017 to .0022 shell to journal clearance is recommended by the formula the expert gave.  The plastigage shows clearance at .0017 with two coated shells.  My thinking is this is tight but the coatings will compact and bed in and a .0020 clearance or close to it will be what I get after break in.  I am tempted to use two coated shells.

Normally, with uncoated shells I would not do this and I would set the clearance for .0020 and not give an allowance for compaction or wear.

Does anyone have experience with this?   

Bo,

There is always wear on heavily loaded parts.    I do not know if the coating will "compact" or just wear.    I've seen lots of coated parts upon disassembly.    Most often the coatings (except for ceramics) are worn.

My thoughts are that rod bearing clearance never gets "smaller", it only increases.   I would take it a little "easy" on the engine during the run in period.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2363 on: March 21, 2016, 08:04:29 AM »
That video about Nish and his views on 2016 is pretty good.  He has an optimistic attitude.  The clean shop, liner ready to go, and engines lined up like bullets is pretty inspiring.  I need to clean up my rathole and get my one bike and engine ready to go.

The shells were installed with the minimum clearance under the assumption the coatings will compact and wear and I will have the clearance midway between too tight and too loose after break in.  This is a guesstimate on my part.  I have no advice about it.

I did all sorts of reading about coatings.  One reference said to use a skirt friction coating if a thermal barrier is used on the crown.  This was done on almost all examples I saw.  So, I did it, too.  Monkey see, monkey do.

The skirts and ring lands rub the cylinder walls with these pistons.  This is normal based on conversations with folks familiar with them.  The ring lands and skirts had the anti-friction coating.  Normally this is done on the skirts, only.

I did not want the ceramic coating on the crown to touch the bore and I asked them to keep the coating back away from the edges.  They used tape to do this.

I really do not want the piston land areas to "lean" on the bores.    Is this happening during the warm-up?    Or all the time?    I would want the piston skirt and lands designed/sized to be stable in the bore once everything is up to temperature.    If a lot of rpm is used right after a cold start, land contact with the cylinder wall could occur.    I would try to keep rpm as low as possible until the engine is fully up to temp.    If the bores are really "hard", piston lean can occur without any wear.    But if you are seeing heavy vertical marks/scratches on the bore, that situation is not the best for ring to bore sealing.    Needless to say, compromised dynamic ring seal costs bhp, although blow-by has to be pretty high to start costing a lot of hp.

The best way to evaluate dynamic ring seal is by measuring dynamic "blow-by" through the crankcase vent(s).    Most "clued-in" dyno facilities can measure "blow-by".    For a one liter engine, I would want to see a max of .5/.6 cfm of dynamic blow-by in the rpm range used, and I would prefer to see less.

Performance Trends has add-on and stand alone blowby sensors.   There is also some info on blow-by levels on their Blow-by sensor page:

http://performancetrends.com/Blowby_CFM_Flow_Sensor_Meter.htm

This is something I pay attention to.     Other engine builders do not always share my concern about it.    And it is also important to note that how low you can go on "ring tension" is a direct function of absolute crankcase pressure.    This is why engines running very low tension rings are usually running some sort of crankcase evacuation.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2364 on: March 21, 2016, 11:57:14 PM »
Thanks for the advice.  I will monitor blow by.

Two valve engines get good charge mixing by swirling the mixture above the piston crown.  Four valve motors tumble the charge over the top of the piston.  The high crown needed to get optimal compression gets in the way of the tumbling mixture and this can cause problems with developing lots of power.  Vizard says this is a reason he developed the polyquad system.  It gets some swirling action and this helps get good mixing with high compression pistons.

The piston crown shown in the previous photo is 13:1 static compression based on the standard combustion chamber and valve sizes.  That is as high as I wanted to go with the dome.  This is a very over square engine and that big piston does not get very far down in the bore.  I did not want to block the flow tumble.  The static compression ratio will be in the low 11's with my cylinder head.  I have bigger valves and some metal removal is done to accommodate them.

The real fast guys put in the biggest valves that will fit and relieve the combustion chamber sides to get good flow into and out of the ports.  The static compression ratio is lower than a catterpillar's belly after they are done...except they install flat topped pistons and stroke the motor to get the compression ratio back up.  They have displacements well over 1,100 cc's.

Running with over 1,000 cc's puts me in the mix with Hayabusa's.  Not a good situation, for sure, so I keep the engine displacement at 995cc's.  This is why I am monkeying around with fuel.  I am trying to get horsepower out of an engine that can breathe well or have decent compression, but not both.

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2365 on: March 22, 2016, 05:42:08 AM »

 I am trying to get horsepower out of an engine that can breathe well or have decent compression, but not both.
 

I was feeling sorry for you for a moment there.    :cry:

Then I remembered that the one liter BMC's are very difficult to get decent compression and they do not breathe well . . . . . .    :cry:    :dhorse:  :cry:

BUT, none of that stopped persistent dunderheads from setting a new record . . . . . .    :-D   :cheers:   :-D


Just keep the story of the Little Red Hen Uhhh, the Harley KR, in mind:

Reduced compression ratio combined with increased flow netted an ~ 20/25% bhp increase.    Thank you Mr. Axtell.

3 things are going to be key to your engine, as I see it:

A/    Maximizing effective compression ratio with the precise cam timing required,
2/    Maximizing inlet "ramming effect" with the best inlet tuned length,
d/    Maximizing exhaust pipe tuning over the designed rpm range.

For your engine, I would make sure that all three of these "tuning effects" are set for the same rpm range, ie, the range you intend to utilize.   That way, all the benefits of the tuning will "accentuate" each other, raising the power peak higher than any one effect might have by itself.

That's the good news.

The bad news is:
If you need a power band wider or flatter than say, 1500 rpm.     If so, then you will have to "spread" the tuning effects, to get the wider power band you may require.    This is what was done with MM's BMC "Grenade".    It was the only way to get the engine to "pull through" the required rpm range with the gearbox he had.

Needless to say, some math and modeling are required to get things to turn out the way you want.   You start by defining some things like top speed, potential gearing and engine rpm range.    And just keep pluggin' away at it.

You have already made a good decision by staying away from the rice grinders.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2366 on: March 24, 2016, 11:27:42 PM »
Thanks for the advice.  I was fortunate to get guidance from Matt Capri before he retired and the folks at Triumph Performance about the intake and exhaust systems that work with their cams.  I was "all ears" as the saying goes and listened carefully.  The system they recommend is on the bike.  The only modification I made is to wrap the header pipes so they do not cool down and increase their tuned length when the bike is slicing through the air.  Matt ceramic coats his headers to do the same thing.  The "baseline" I have before I start any math based fine tuning should be pretty good.

Cam timing is a problem.  There is no way I can adjust it.

We raced on the beach right near Pendine village.  Lots of British men rode or ride Triumphs.  There were many stories and much encouragement.  It is like that here in America, too.  People identify with the bike and it means something to them to see one out there racing.  My middle son has a Bonneville.  The feeling is that there is a big legacy from earlier times that comes with the bike, I make my tiny contribution, and it is passed on to future generations.  It is bigger than me, really.  The Japanese bikes might be better engineered.  There is not the history, though.  It might not be just me feeling this.  The Bonneville series are the slowest of the Hinckley Triumphs and there are more of them in competition than the others combined.       

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2367 on: March 25, 2016, 07:45:16 AM »
But - if it weren't for the sounds I heard when Bobby Dixon, back in 10th grade, would give me rides on the back of his dad's Bonneville, I wonder what I'd do for fun?

Bone stock, it was -- but the sound of the pipes and the whole thing -- got me hooked for life.  Thanks, Triumph! :cheers: :cheers:
Jon E. Wennerberg
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 (that's way up north)
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2368 on: March 26, 2016, 10:00:50 AM »
Slim, Bobby's dad was a trusting sort.  There was no way one of my boys woulda rode my Bonneville in the 10th grade.  You were lucky to experience that.

There are four groups of Bonnevilles and each has their own personalities and looks.  The first group was made in Meriden and they had separate engines and trannys.  These are pre-unit with model years 1959 through 1962.  The 1959 model had the more extensive and graceful sheet metal that was typical of the 1950's.  The tinwork was dropped for the next year due to popular demand.  Now the '59 model is the most valuable.  Times and tastes change.

The motor and trans shared spaces in a common housing starting in 1963.  These are the unit construction twins.  These were in a frame with a separate oil tank through 1970.  The handling improved and various other refinements make the 1970 model the "best Bonneville" according to many.

The unit motor was put in a frame which carried the oil in its spine in 1971 until 1988.  The earlier ones were funky in the looks.  They were made better looking and performing until the last ones were made in 1988.  Production was transferred to Devon and they were made by L. F. Harris under a patent agreement.  The 1988 Harris Bonneville is my favorite.  He did a massive amount of work to improve them.

The first Bonnevilles made in Hinckley were 2001 models.  They started out with 790cc and dual carbs and the last had EFI and 865 cc displacement.  They were made until 2015 with the exception of a few 2016 scramblers.  All are air/oil cooled.

The water cooled ones are being made now. 

This is the time to go to the dealer if you want a Bonneville.  New and previous versions can be compared side by side.  They are quite different and this is the last chance to buy a new earlier one.
   


Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #2369 on: March 26, 2016, 09:04:48 PM »
I'll stay with my '67 T100C..........one carb............one kick............high-pipes..........and soon back together with new Pacific Blue over Alaska White paint on the tank :-) :-) :-)
2011 AMA Record - 250cc M-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 82.5 mph
2013 AMA Record - 250cc MPS-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 88.7 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 136.6 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 143.005 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 139.85 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 144.2025 mph

Chassis Builder / Tuner: Dave Murre