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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 712412 times)
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2220 on: November 19, 2015, 11:28:11 PM »

Most of the formulae we use and PipeMax are based on engine horsepower.  The power I use in those calculations is 111X 1.1 = 122 hp.  Getting 111 rear wheel horsepower with naturally aspirated gas outta that pig will be just as nice an accomplishment as going 165 mph.   
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2221 on: November 20, 2015, 11:16:49 PM »

The big boxy brown truck made a visit.  The cams are here.  They are the personal grinds developed by Carlos at Triumph Performance for his street bike.  The cams I have been using are all-purpose grinds and are best for hillclimbing, scrambles, flat track, etc.  That is deliberate.  Bumpy cams are hard on the expensive valve train and I wanted to get everything sorted before they went into the motor.  Sorta like all of those nuclear warheads.  The military saves them for the big day.

The first step is to check the clearance between the lobe tips and the cylinder head.  Not much but enough.  Tonight the cam data will be entered into PipeMax.   

     


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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2222 on: November 21, 2015, 01:29:28 AM »

The cam specs are the missing link in the engine analysis and I did not have them until the cams arrived.  The cams combined with the existing valves have plenty of flow capacity up until the highest lifts, like I suspected.  The flow at high lifts needs to be improved.  The primary tuned length for the third harmonic needs to be a couple of inches shorter.  No problem there.  Wrapping the pipes will give me what I need.

The best volumetric efficiency I have gotten from one of these engines is 109%.  The peak power rpm is assumed to be 8,400.  That is all one can expect from one of these motors.  Peak engine horsepower is calculated to be around 120 if everything is working at its best.  120 / 1.1 = 109 rear wheel horsepower.   At Bonneville, this is 109 x .86 = 94 horsepower.  I need 111.  It looks like I am running for time only...unless I tip the can. 

 
 
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2223 on: November 21, 2015, 09:59:26 PM »

There are a few things I did with this build that are not obvious.  They might help a novice.  Its the slow season on this forum, so here it is.

1)  There is not a lot of readily available guidance on how to build these engines.  The first thing I did, in 2008, was to find out who knew how to build them for land speed and had a proven performance record.  This was, and continues to be, a big deal.  They developed and have the specialized parts I need.  Also, there was someone to give me advice when I got into problems.

2)  Any successful engine is a combination of parts.  This is especially true of the cams.  The Victory Library has some of the best info explaining the relationships between the cams and the rest of the engine.  Early on, I started buying parts that would eventually coalesce into the winning COMBINATION.  One year I bought the rods.  Another year the mufflers, then the big bore barrels and pistons, then the carbs, etc.  This started in 2008.

3)  I do not know much to begin with and am not the smartest guy.  Knowing this is a big help.  A lot of work was done with small displacement and low compression combinations so I could learn some of the finer points of building and tuning this specific engine.  It is nine years after I started with this Triumph and only now do I feel confident enough to reach out for the big bumpy cams and high (for me) compression.

4)  Trust professionals.  The cylinder head, valve gear, and cams  got sent down to Kibblewhite this afternoon with a letter listing what I think needs to be done along with the rubber port casting and the PipeMax data.  A sentence in the letter says this is my opinion and I am receptive to other and better ideas.  They built the valve train so they are in a good position to give me advice.

5)  Periodic teardowns were, and are, done to identify problems before they become terminal.  Things like cracks forming in piston skirts, small end seizures, big end bearing flaking, were found and rectified before the motor was run the next year.  One reason the air cooled Triumph Bonneville was chosen for this racing is the ease of disassembly and assembly.

6)  Quality parts were bought to handle increased engine stresses before I needed them.  A lot of money was spent on items like Carillo rods, forged pistons, and titanium valve train parts.  The way I figure it, I will be buying the high grade parts anyhow, so it pays to put them in early so the motor stays together.

7)  Use math and intellectual type thinking to identify exactly where the problem is and the solution.  As an example, I knew a few years ago that the intake flow was not enough to give me the power I need.  A flow test on the cylinder head along with lots of head scratching and figgering told me to not increase valve size and to look at opening the ports.  This saved me big $$.

Cool  Sort out the chassis and handling and learn how to ride the danged thing before building the big and fast motor.  It took me a lifetime to unlearn from doing it the other way and I am lucky to be around to talk about it.

9)  Run your own race.  Basically, I don't give a @#%! about what those )*6&heads in places like so cal do.  I work with what I got and understand and hope to live long enough to win the big race.  Doing it my way.

Anyway, here is some humble advice from a slow old guy in the back woods.     
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« Reply #2224 on: November 22, 2015, 01:51:39 PM »

You say you are slow, but your faster than most!
You claim to be old, but your younger than most!
We all are cheering for you and want you to boast,
before you do the unthinkable and turn that motor into burned toast grin grin grin grin grin grin grin
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2011 AMA Record - 250cc M-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 82.5 mph
2013 AMA Record - 250cc MPS-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 88.7 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 136.6 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 143.005 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 139.85 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 144.2025 mph

Chassis Builder / Tuner: Dave Murre
wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2225 on: November 23, 2015, 02:24:53 AM »

Thanks Tom.  That 9) problem has been bothering me.  I like to read and Cycle World and Motorcyclist rave about these new bikes in the 1000cc class.  That new Yamaha R1 is smart enough that a chimp could ride it.  Those new bikes have so much more power than I can ever get.  There seem to be some overt and subliminal messages in these mags that the new stuff is the only way to go.  There are a few times I was going to park the bike.

We get some British magazines here like Classic Racer, Classic Bike Guide, and a few others.  They are the opposite philosophy to those two so cal mags.  I feel pretty good about reading them.  One had an article about my bike a number of years ago.  There is much less commercialisation.   Also, that magazine The Horse is out of Detroit and they seem to be well grounded and realistic about things.  Cycle World and Motorcyclist stay on the news stand.  I do not buy them any more.

It has been difficult.  Now I am trying to focus on my own program and forget about the latest superduperbikes. 
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« Reply #2226 on: November 23, 2015, 10:56:25 AM »

Bo, not being up on anything Triumph newer than 1970, is your motor pushrod or overhead cam?
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« Reply #2227 on: November 23, 2015, 03:45:35 PM »

Bo dont lose heart on the latest so called superdooper bikes (claimed HP by over zellos jurnos rolleyes). Pentroof by its very design is superior to Hemi,, add in the wizzbang eletronics a 'ole skool design is never going to be in the ball park. You cant change physics, only incoraprate it where possible  wink, cheers
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2228 on: November 23, 2015, 10:05:01 PM »

Fred, it is a double overhead cam engine.

Stay-Tee, not thinking about things comes naturally to me.  Rose can tell you about this.  I will stay focused.

The 995 cc big bore cylinders are billet aluminum with some sort of hard plating on the bores.  Use on them is a 600 mile break in on the street, three days of dyno work, and five runs on the salt flats.  There are no grooves in them from contaminants being dragged ups and down with the pistons.  There are slight shiny spots in the hone marks where the rings are when the pistons reverse directions.  The machinist measured them today to the nearest 0.0001 inches.  He had the build clearance sheet from 2013, when they were new, when he did this.  He said they are unworn for all practical purposes and they measure out just like when they were new.  The old pistons have slight wear.  They could be used for another year or two.  The old rings are barely worn.

The new pistons were measured and there is 0.004 inches of clearance in each bore at the bottom of the skirts.  This is where Arias wants the clearance to be measured.  It is exactly what Arias recommends.  The new and old pistons are the same as best as I can tell, except for the crown.  The new ones have higher domes.

It seems like a good idea to put the old rings on the new pistons, very lightly hone the bores, and to put the bike together.  This will save all of the metal removal associated with a new hone for the new rings.  Is this a good idea?

In the past I had a 1974 two stroke Yamaha SC500 dirt bike.  The pistons cracked unless they were periodically replaced.  Usually, a bore job, piston rings, and the piston pin would last an entire season.  The pistons were replaced two or three times.  I reused the rings and did not rehone.  This is where I get the idea.     
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2229 on: November 24, 2015, 12:09:46 AM »

One reason I am worried is the new top ring is gas nitrided stainless steel.  It does not have that green coating on the outer edge that helps with break in.  It might require a really aggressive hone to provide sufficient roughness for break in and this might enlarge the bores too much.
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« Reply #2230 on: November 24, 2015, 06:20:38 AM »

Bo,
The only time I reused pistons and rings in a motor (CB350F Honda) and re-honed the cylinders, the rings never sealed again and I had compression readings as low as 100psi (in Colorado, so I wasn't expecting it to be very high.)  I think I'd re-use the old rings and leave the cylinders alone.
Tom
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« Reply #2231 on: November 24, 2015, 09:01:09 AM »

I imagine the cylinders are nikasil coated. They will not take much honing. All the jap manuf. use it. Millennium Technologies is the place that everybody I know use for plating and advice on what you can do. Check them out.
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WORLDS FASTEST PRODUCTION MOTORCYCLE 213.470
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Sponsers Catalyst Composites, Johnny Cheese Perf, Knecum Racing Engines, Murray Headers, Carpenter Racing
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« Reply #2232 on: November 24, 2015, 11:01:29 AM »

Good Nikasil article here by our member ggl205: http://www.engineprofessional.com/ep4.html
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« Reply #2233 on: November 24, 2015, 06:51:16 PM »

Bo........If you need to, Milennium Tech is located about 6 miles from my home. My builder, Dave Murre, has an account with them at a sizable discount to their list prices. My time and handling is worthless cheesy
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2011 AMA Record - 250cc M-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 82.5 mph
2013 AMA Record - 250cc MPS-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 88.7 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 136.6 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 143.005 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 139.85 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 144.2025 mph

Chassis Builder / Tuner: Dave Murre
wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2234 on: November 24, 2015, 10:19:41 PM »

That phone number for Millenium is written in my phone book.  Thanks for telling me about it.  I was reading that article about nakasil and alumasil when I remembered something.  New pistons and rings in a slightly used barrel was the situation I had when building the middle sized motor for Pendine.  What I did was to hand sand the barrel with 600 grit followed by 320 grit and finally by 400 grit.  It is a nakasil or similar bore and the rings seated.  The Pendine bore, pistons, and rings look great.  Heck, there is the answer.  Do what I did before that worked.

Years ago I was a service manager at Bakersfield Yamaha and I did all of the cylinder boring and honing, too.  The coarse hone puts deep grooves at wider spaced intervals in the bore.  They retain lubricant on the cylinder walls during break in.  The fine hone puts a lot more shallower grooves on the bore that do the work of seating the rings.  The middle grit does a bit of both.  That is what I was taught.

It is embarrassing to not remember stuff.     
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