Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 831182 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Old Scrambler

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Wherever I park the RV
  • Going Fast - Slowly
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1755 on: July 23, 2014, 05:24:05 PM »
I did a bit of riding in '70-'71 in the Ridgecrest / Red Rock Canyon area................only came in direct contact with one rattler...........got him with both wheels :lol:  When I see you at the salt-flats I'll tell you about sleeping with them :roll:

Hope you get a chance to get to the Kennedy Meadows area..............and have a fishing line :-) :-) :-)
2011 AMA Record - 250cc M-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 82.5 mph
2013 AMA Record - 250cc MPS-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 88.7 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 136.6 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 143.005 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 139.85 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 144.2025 mph

Chassis Builder / Tuner: Dave Murre

Offline Stan Back

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5112
  • Location: San Berdoo
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1756 on: July 23, 2014, 05:26:16 PM »
. . . and mosquito nets.
Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club".
Celebrating 67th anniversary of racing on the salt.

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5018
  • Age: 66
  • Location: backwoods Oregon
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1757 on: July 23, 2014, 10:27:00 PM »
Kennedy Meadows is beautiful place.  My aunt was going to scatter my uncle's ashes up there.  Someone built a ski resort where she wanted to do it.  She drove home to Ridgecrest and sprinkled him on his little flower garden.

This is Bridge Street south of Beaumont.  A bunch of oil bottles along side the road, an old worn out racing tire, and these odd marks on the pavement.  Bootleg drag racing on hot summer nights.  There are similar places where I ran in my youth.  Gosford Road near bakersfield was the only place where bets were made and money exchanged hands, that I know of.

Early in the night I was one of the faster or fastest bikes.  My downfall was a fondness for green cigarettes.  They do not help with drag racing.  The guy you are racing against is halfway down the track before you realize the starter lowered the flashlight.  This racing seems minor league and dumb now.  It was a great place to learn the fundamentals.  I am sure some more of us LSR folks did this at one time.

Offline tauruck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4901
  • Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1758 on: July 24, 2014, 12:06:29 AM »
Green cigarettes??? :-D
Good one Bo.

Sounds like you had a great trip?. On the road I mean. :cheers:

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5018
  • Age: 66
  • Location: backwoods Oregon
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1759 on: July 24, 2014, 08:54:31 PM »
It has been a long time since I lit one of those.  They are legal now in some places.  It is hard to stay focused when Mary Jane is your girlfriend.

The happy fellow in the picture is a famous northern California racer, Craig Breedlove.  He is putting the finishing touches on a model of the car he is developing.  Car is maybe not the right term.  It is a double engined jet with no wings.

The model is made from a lamination of sheets fused together.  The sheets are cut on a printer.  It is hollow inside and it gives a good representation of the internal and external size of the jet car.  The actual design is being done using SolidWorks with both wind tunnel and virtual aerodynamic modeling.

It was impressive to listen to an expert talk about cutting-edge LSR who has done it, knows exactly what to do, and how hard it will be.  Two things I learned are how important it is to keep up with the state of the art and the great value of testing in real world conditions. 


Offline Old Scrambler

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Wherever I park the RV
  • Going Fast - Slowly
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1760 on: July 25, 2014, 10:42:59 AM »
It has been a long time since I lit one of those.  They are legal now in some places.  It is hard to stay focused when Mary Jane is your girlfriend.

The happy fellow in the picture is a famous northern California racer, Craig Breedlove.  He is putting the finishing touches on a model of the car he is developing.  Car is maybe not the right term.  It is a double engined jet with no wings.

The model is made from a lamination of sheets fused together.  The sheets are cut on a printer.  It is hollow inside and it gives a good representation of the internal and external size of the jet car.  The actual design is being done using SolidWorks with both wind tunnel and virtual aerodynamic modeling.

It was impressive to listen to an expert talk about cutting-edge LSR who has done it, knows exactly what to do, and how hard it will be.  Two things I learned are how important it is to keep up with the state of the art and the great value of testing in real world conditions. 



Incredibly Credible :-)
2011 AMA Record - 250cc M-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 82.5 mph
2013 AMA Record - 250cc MPS-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 88.7 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 136.6 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 143.005 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 139.85 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 144.2025 mph

Chassis Builder / Tuner: Dave Murre

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5018
  • Age: 66
  • Location: backwoods Oregon
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1761 on: July 26, 2014, 01:52:39 PM »
Prior to the trip I described how I would ride the same roads with this fuel injected bike that I did with an Amal equipped BSA.  Today's and tomorrow's posts are on what I learned about the two systems

SoCal, and to a lesser degree, Northern California, have extremes in urban area traffic conditions.  The freeways are choked with dense traffic traveling at high speeds.  The hills and mountains around the cities are crisscrossed with beautiful twisty roads having little traffic.  A very small amount of this trip was done on freeways and most on back roads.

The first picture shows a store at Mount Palomar near San Diego.  Sport bike riders are always coming and going from there.  There are twisty roads all around.  Cafe Racers are a big deal in California, people say.  None were seen the entire trip.  My middle son is on the red and black Triumph.

These EFI equipped bikes lurch on and off the power when the throttle is opened and shut from closed.  I wondered if the problems on my bike are due to the hotter cams.  My son has standard cams and the same difficulty.  The secret to going fast on these roads is to smoothly back off the throttle when leaning into a turn and to slowly open it when exiting. The most critical time for perfect throttle control are those times when the bike is leaned over real far.  Throttle control with these EFI systems is awful in these circumstances.  It takes far too much concentration to ride the EFI equipped bikes and a lot of speed is lost.  Amals are far better for street racing.

The next picture is of a state highway, believe it or not, in the hills above Saratoga in Northern Calif.  In this case the bike was fully loaded and the road was wet.  This is like a lot of the roads where I grew up.  Throttle control is essential for riding on these.  This was a day where I had some time to fiddle with things.  Adjusting the EFI requires a laptop and a the bike needs to be on a battery charger.  Adjusting the Animal carbs used a few jets out of a Sucrets cough drop can I carried in my riding jacket.  The monoblocs are the best.  All jets can be changed without taking the carb apart.  Amals are better when field adjustments are needed.

Some work will be done during the next few months to try and fix this problem on the EFI.  Plans are to use EFI with forced induction in the future.  Goofy EFI throttle response combined with the quirky power delivery from a turbo will be a real problem.  It is worth it for me to spend a little time working with this more modern fuel system.

Offline Koncretekid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1099
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Yarmouth, Nova Scotia & Lafayette, Co.
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1762 on: July 26, 2014, 04:51:16 PM »
Bo,
Some of us just dream about taking another long road trip; others like you do it!  A 100 mile day trip seems to be my limit anymore.  I'm envious and you are to be congratulated as well as lucky to have a family member to ride with. 

I was surprised that the EFI systems are not as smooth as carburated ones.  I've never ridden a fuel injected bike - - maybe I won't!  I have a nice 850 Norton just waiting to be tweaked and I think it will be my roadie.

Tom
We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
Life's uncertain - eat dessert first!

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5018
  • Age: 66
  • Location: backwoods Oregon
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1763 on: July 27, 2014, 12:09:07 AM »
Tom, tomorrow I will post the good side of EFI. 

You will harden up during the trip.  The first day will seem kinda difficult and each one after that will get easier.  Toward the end you will be a riding animal.  One thing to make it easier is to book KOA cabins or motel rooms ahead of time so you do not have to camp and carry all of the gear.  I camped so I had to carry everything.

I was working a lot of overtime and actually was in the office on the 4th.  Preparation for the trip was minimal.  I threw a bunch of camping gear on the bike and headed south.  There were a lot of side winds south of Klamath Falls and all through California.  A lot of bulky camp gear and non essentials were left along side the road for the hobos to find.  I bought lighter backpacking gear to replace it in the cities I drove through.  It is important to pack light.  A big difference I noticed since my last big trips are there are a lot fewer gas stations in rural areas.  A long range tank, like on the Interstate, would be a good idea.  There are some bike shops handling the old British stuff.  You probably can get anything you need in an emergency in a few days using express delivery.

Che Guevara rode a Norton with his buddy on pillion from Buenos Aires to somewhere north of Valparaiso, Chile before it died.  They crossed the Andes.  Based on that, the newer Norton should work OK.   

               

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5018
  • Age: 66
  • Location: backwoods Oregon
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1764 on: July 27, 2014, 09:57:04 AM »
A lot of climatic changes were encountered during this trip.  The picture in the redwoods in yesterday's post was on a cool humid morning a few hundred feet above sea level.  There were a lot of mountain passes over 7,000 feet.  It got hot, too.  It was 107 degrees when this picture was taken near Taft in the oil fields.  The EFI selected the correct mixture in all cases.  Mileage with the early model cams, glass pak mufflers, and using regular grade 10 percent gasahol was in the 50's on rural roads where I could maintain speed.  55 mpg was the best.  Mileage dipped down to the mid 30's when I was in city traffic like when I went up Highway 1 through Orange and Los Angeles counties.  34 mpg was the worst.

Mileage and performance like this is far better than I can get using carbs.  This really shows me the value of EFI for use when density altitude varies a lot.  Plans are to work with the EFI this winter to get the throttle response problem figured out.  My son recommends a throttle drum with a progressive cam that opens the butterflies slowly at first.  Other alternatives are to use the throttle position-rpm-injector opening duration maps, only, without the manifold vacuum-rpm-injector maps, and/or to fiddle around the the spark timing curves.

Offline Sporty Dan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 93
  • Location: Walla Walla, WA
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1765 on: July 27, 2014, 11:59:43 AM »
Looks like a great road trip!  :-D I'm jealous! Glad to hear the EFI is working so well for you.

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5018
  • Age: 66
  • Location: backwoods Oregon
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1766 on: July 29, 2014, 12:51:01 AM »
The optimum power happened with #142 main jets using the oxygenated gas.  This was a three sizes larger than the optimum main jets using the leaded gas.  This is as expected.

The Stage 3 spark advance curve is the one used my most race engine builders.  Average peak torque for three runs was 71.1 pounds-feet.  The Stage 4 curve is 2 degrees advanced from the Stage 3.  It gave a 3-run average of 70.9 lbs-ft.  The Stage 5 curve is 4 degrees advanced from the Stage 3.  It gave a 3-run average of 69.7 lbs-ft.  The best policy is to run the most retarded curve that gives decent power.  This is the Stage 3 one.

Average power is 87.2 with the 142 mains and the Stage 3 curve.  ERC suggests, and I agree, that something is holding this motor back so it cannot take advantage of the oxygenated gas.  They have some suggestions.  This winter I will implement them.

The next step is to figure out the density altitude in the dyno room when the jetting runs were made.  The climatic conditions during the three pulls are listed on the printouts.  Avg temp is 91.4 degrees F, uncorrected barometric pressure is 30.22 inches Hg, humidity is 12%.  The Airdensityonline website has a calculator.  Using it, the density altitude in the dyno room was 1,853 feet.

The general rules of thumb for Keihin FCR's are to decrease the main jet one size for every 2,000 feet increase in elevation and to decrease the pilot jet one size for every 4,000 feet.

The average of the three highest density altitudes on my time slips from B'ville are 6,590 feet, the average of all density altitudes is 6,020 feet, and the average DA of the lowest three is 5,390 feet.

6,590 - 1,853 = 4,740
6,020 - 1,853 = 4,170
5,390 - 1,853 = 3,540

Decreasing the main jet two sizes and the pilot one size should be ideal.  What I will do is to decrease the main jets one size and to leave the pilots alone.   It is better to have a slightly rich mixture in an air cooled motor.  A little bit of extra fuel cools them down some.     

 

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5018
  • Age: 66
  • Location: backwoods Oregon
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1767 on: July 30, 2014, 12:18:51 AM »
The bar tender at one of my locals asked me how my week was going.  I said "not so good" and I told him about my missing horsepower.  They did not know I land speed raced.  I was maintaining a facade of sanity and normalcy.  One thing led to another, and our annual team picture with the bike ready to go will be taken at around 5:00 PM on Tuesday at Santiam Brewery, 2544 19th St. S.E., Salem, Oregon.  Salem is divided into five parts and the S.E. section is the southeast corner of the town.  Anyone in the area is welcome.  The brewery is at the far back of an industrial park so it takes a bit of looking to find it.   

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5018
  • Age: 66
  • Location: backwoods Oregon
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1768 on: July 30, 2014, 07:25:40 PM »
These are the three pulls we did with jets making the most power combined with the most retarded spark advance curve that made optimum peak torque.  Note how the mixture goes rich at high rpm.  Any ideas?

Offline 4-barrel Mike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2997
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Any fool can drive a V8
Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1769 on: July 30, 2014, 08:55:36 PM »
I know nothing about your Triumph, but in the Ford 2.3 Turbo world, AFR ~12.5 @ 8000rpm would be considered to be lean, tending toward dangerously lean.

Watching, as always, with great interest.

Mike
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!