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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 801940 times)

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Offline joea

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1455 on: November 10, 2013, 09:57:29 AM »
Pingel remote with guzzler valve...is swell...your kind of people...your kind of parts...:)...

used one for many years...

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1456 on: November 10, 2013, 12:10:30 PM »
Tom and Pete, what do I look for on the dyno curves during the last few hundred rpm?

Joea and Don, right now there are a few Pingel things on the bike and they are working great.  I will try those parts you suggest.  Heck, I am traveling halfway across the planet to end up on some sheep farm in the outback.  Reliable stuff is what I need and it is no problem to spend a few extra $.

Offline peterdallan

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1457 on: November 10, 2013, 01:17:45 PM »
Bo,

I used the Pingel Guzzler on our bike you saw at BUB this year, worked impeccably.

Peter

Online mc2032

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1458 on: November 10, 2013, 02:52:31 PM »
i use the pingle remote nitro valve (it has an AN 8 threaded outlet fitting) but they make many styles and sizes.  pingle will make the remote cable to any length, at least they did for me.
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1459 on: November 10, 2013, 10:19:07 PM »
Today I was going to go out and figure out where to locate the valve. The poor bike is between and under this massive stack of tarps, plywood, scaffolding, etc.  Fortunately all of the sheet metal is off of it so there will be no damage.

The new Triumph Bonnevilles have been made since 2001 with pretty minor changes.  My middle boy, Josef, just bought a 2014 T-100 in black with the red stripes.  He is lucky.  These are in big demand and hard to get.

Being a backwoods guy, I am always looking for a deal and scrounging for stuff.  I do not know exactly what I have any more.  Sorta like a squirrel that forgets where he hid the nuts.  The kid talked me out of my titanium Arrow pipes.  Looking for them, I found a pair of saddlebags for him, and some old style English handlebars.

That is something I never thought would happen.  Passing on my old hot rod parts.  Not sure who is happier.  The boy or the old man.               

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1460 on: November 12, 2013, 12:13:18 AM »
Today I was going to make a set of baffles for the Arrow pipes to match my son's cams.  Data is input into PipeMax first.  The Triumph cam timing data is for 1.0mm valve lift and I converted it to 0.050 inch data for the program.  The exhaust valve lift vs degree curve crosses the intake curve at 0.05 inch lift.  There are zero degrees overlap.  The intake valve has only 220 degrees duration and the exhaust has 210 degrees at 0.050.  All very unimpressive specs.

The torque and power data for the modeling came from the is road test comparison in the February 2013 Motorcyclist.  Note the long duration of the torque curve.   The bike performs well with those very mild cams.  It is an 865cc engine with 10.2 to 1 compression, catalytic converters, and air injection into the exhaust.  None of this is good for producing power. 

I cannot figure out what Triumph did to make this engine perform as good as it does.  That broad and flat torque curve would be great for my race motors.

Offline Koncretekid

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1461 on: November 12, 2013, 03:49:17 PM »
Should be a good cam for adding that supercharger you have planned!
We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1462 on: November 13, 2013, 12:00:09 AM »
You are thinking, Tom.  As soon as the warranty is up some tasteful mods will be made to the new bike to make it run better, last longer, and get better gas mileage.  One of the changes will be pulling out those low perf cams.  They will become property of the racing program and be used for the blown motor or as cores for some custom ones.

The race gas is ordered.  Three 5-gallon cans are being blended with the AUS mixture.  One drum will be used to tune the bike before the trip and the others will be used for record chasing when I get back.  I could have ordered a 16 gallon drum.  It would be partially full for years.  The unopened cans are better for storing fuel.  There is less chance of oxidation.  These MUL mixtures have a very long shelf life so I can do this.  Blendzall is being mixed in.  This is a recommended top end lube. 

The fuel demand is estimated to be 15% more than it is now.  The delivery system is being upgraded to assure this will happen.  The timing curve I am using for the Sunuco Standard is expected to be close to the one needed for the the MULC.  Curves will be available during the dyno session that are 2 degrees advanced and retarded from the one I have now.  Mixture will be set first, then the spark curve.  All of this is keeping me very busy.       

Offline tauruck

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1463 on: November 13, 2013, 12:09:19 AM »
Bo, you never sleep it seems. What time is it there. 1AM? :-D

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1464 on: November 20, 2013, 11:41:12 PM »
Hi Mike.  The time posted on the site is what it is at Slim and Nancy's house on the UP back east at the big lakes.  Oregon is on the west coast and a couple of few hours behind them.

These next posts are about setting the timing curves on the Triumph.  This stuff is not on the net or in the manual and I had to figure it out.  This might be a help to anyone who races one of these.

The first step to working on Triumph electrics is to have a stiff drink.  Be aware that a lot of the stuff you will be working with has color codes different than what is in the manual and wires of different colors connect to each other.  Also, the manual does not give a lot of info about any of this.

The ignition timing is based on throttle opening and rpm.  The throttle opening is measured by a Throttle Position Sensor (TPS).  It is a rheostat and it is the black thing with wires coming out of it that is attached to the side of the carb.  Three wires come out of it.  One is a ground and it is black.  Another green wire is the feed and it should read a steady voltage between 4.5 and 5.5 volts.  The third wire is light colored and it is the output.  It should read less than a volt when the throttle is shut and around 4 volts at full throttle.  The colors on the Triumph wiring diagram are different.

It is a little over 20 degrees out and the flat slide carbs are on the bike.  It is warmer inside so the standard carbs are used to demonstrate this.  The black plug would be plugged in and the ignition turned on for an actual test.  A needle is stuck up the connector to touch a terminal for the voltage readings.  The next post will be on how to adjust the TPS.

 

 

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1465 on: November 22, 2013, 12:44:59 AM »
The TPS is held on to the carb with two screws.  They can be loosened and the TPS is rotated to adjust it.  The triumph twin power website has a procedure where they check the resistance through the TPS at full and closed throttle.

Another way is to screw out the idle throttle stop adjuster until the throttle plates are fully closed.  Then, the resistance through the TPS should be 6000 ohms when the throttle is shut and 500 ohms when it is fully open.  The TPS is rotated slightly until this occurs if it is out of adjustment.

My final check is to hook up the TPS and to measure the voltage in the TPS output wire while turning the throttle.  The voltage should smoothly increase when the throttle is turned.  A jerky or erratic voltage increase is a sign of trouble.  Proper ignition timing depends on the TPS being correctly adjusted.


Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1466 on: November 22, 2013, 07:31:54 PM »
The first step is done, and that is to verify the TPS is working OK. 

The second step is not going as planned.  This programmable black box I ordered is made in China.  The software is vague.  Tech support does not return e-mails.  It has a baseline TPS voltage vs spark advance curve programmed into it, along with a baseline rpm vs spark advance curve, and a baseline rev limit.  Nobody seems to know what these curves and limits are.  All I can do is to adjust these unknown curves.  Too risky.

The fellow in England won't tell me what his curves are, either.  They work great, though.  I am back to the original plan of using his Stage 3 curve as a start and trying boxes with 2 degrees advance and 2 degrees retard.  I found a deal on some new Triumph black boxes so I will send two to him to be reprogrammed.

   

Offline Geo

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1467 on: November 22, 2013, 07:38:19 PM »
WW,

You need to correctly text them.  Begin with 计算机编程黑框中   :?

Interesting the setting values on the TPS.  On the cars I work with there is an idle setting value and you do not worry about anything else.  :-D

Geo

Offline fredvance

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1468 on: November 23, 2013, 09:21:13 AM »
WW, have you talked to Jon Minono? He probably knows more about Triumphs Than just about anybody.
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1469 on: November 23, 2013, 03:21:32 PM »
Geo, the TPS has a constant feed into it with 4.5 to 5.5 volts pressure.  It is a rheostat with a sorta liner response to throttle opening.  The two I have give 0.5 volts output pressure at closed throttle and around 4.5 volts pressure at full throttle.  The output goes into the black box and it is programmed to provide varying amounts of spark advance at different input voltages.  The box has a map for TPS output voltage vs spark advance.

The TPS replicates a vacuum advance.  It gives a lot of advance at cruising throttle openings and less advance at idle and full throttle.  The most advance happens at 2 to 3 volts output, I am told.  The problem is, if the silly thing is wearing out or if the connections are corroded, the output input voltage could be 2 to 3 volts at full throttle.  This gives the black box the signal to give maximum spark advance at full throttle rather than at cruising rpm.  The timing settings on a production bike are so mild that this would be barely noticed.  It could be a disaster on a highly tuned race bike.  This is why I am so fussy about the output voltage at full throttle.

The ideal solution is a programmable black box where the advance curve can be programmed in so it is based on RPM, only, or based on RPM and TPS where the TPS advance contribution is constant throughout the TPS output voltage range.  A "out of spec" TPS output voltage would not be catastrophic in either case.

My solution is to send three black boxes England and to tell the programmer my concerns.  I cannot find a fully programmable black box with decent software and tech support.

Fred, Thanks for the advice.  I will contact him.