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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 1029690 times)

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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1425 on: October 20, 2013, 10:58:56 PM »
Years of racing these Bonnevilles has left me with a big hoard of parts and the knowledge about small changes that give good results.  All I want to do with the new street Bonnie is to put on the Triumph off-road silencers that flow better and are reasonably quiet, change to a 790cc intake cam, and remove the noise abatement snorkel from the air box.  These little changes add up to quite a bit more performance and I have the parts.  Triumph makes a map for the silencer change, only, and it is closed loop at idle and adaptive at other throttle openings.  The Triumph map does not consider the cam and intake changes.

There are proprietary maps and they are all open loop.  I am worried about their ability to work with the highly variable gasolines we have in Oregon.

Then, there is making a new map.  This takes a lot of dyno work and all sorts of $.

This would be a no-brainer with carbs.  Simply a few runs on the dyno to figure out the jet changes and it is done.  Is there a simple solution that I am overlooking? 

The race bike will run carbs.


Offline joea

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1426 on: October 20, 2013, 11:25:33 PM »
Yeah...ur overcomplicating it.... Its quite abit easier in most cases to dial in FI, and u dont even have to get your hands dirty...

Offline SaltPeter

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1427 on: October 21, 2013, 06:29:37 AM »
Bo, given the changes you're describing, I'd have to agree with joea, anyone who is a Qualified Dyno Tuner should be able to do exactly the same thing with your EFI as you described that you can do with Carbs.

I don't know you're budget but maybe check this out http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/dynojet-power-commander-v-for-triumph-bonneville-t100-thruxton-2009-2010

Pete

The Mission is to go as fast as possible along on that old Road Less Traveled.

Offline Hellcat Customs

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Re: Re: Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1428 on: October 21, 2013, 07:52:18 AM »
Compressor maps and a couple formulas will tell you the story Bo.
http://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/compressor_maps

If you are running into detonation issues now with pretty mild compression it will need to be low to handle boost without backing the timing out a heap.

jon

You could use water injection to curb detonation with a turbo setup... Or play some tricks with injectors. there are a few of us playing with turbo Sportsters, mine runs 9:1 with no intercooler and no water injection... The water injection dropped the intake temp so fast at Bonneville it confused the ecu and it went into cold start mode which over fueled it... So it was turned back off fir the remaining runs

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1429 on: October 21, 2013, 08:28:12 PM »
All sorts of advice came my way.  Some by PM.  Thanks for all of it.  Evidently the cams and snorkel removal are small changes and the quieter TOR silencers are a small change, too.  Overall the alterations are within the capability of the Triumph maps for either TOR silencers or the more free flowing Arrow silencers.

The Triumph system is adaptive and it can display the amount of its adaptive range that is being used.  Let's say 50% of the range is being used at a particular point, it will say this and I am OK. Otherwise, I need to redo the map.  I need to idle the motor after making changes for a specified period so it can do the adapting.

None of this I knew.  I guess my problems are solved.   

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1430 on: October 24, 2013, 09:37:23 PM »
This is the oil filter used when the big motor went through the 600 mile break-in period.  I am opening the top and looking inside.  There was nothing exceptional laying inside the filter end.  Just fine dust like particles that looked like broken off high spots from the cylinder hone. 

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1431 on: October 24, 2013, 09:40:21 PM »
The paper is cut out with a box knife.  I put it in a jar with some laquer thinner and shook it up.  Then I poured everything out on a paper towel.  This got rid of the oil so I could see the paper clearly. 

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1432 on: October 24, 2013, 09:46:57 PM »
Not good.  There were some tiny flat silvery flakes on the paper.  I had not seen this on earlier inspections of the medium sized motor.  Either I am losing a bearing shell or it is some machining swarf from new parts.  The cylinders, pistons, and oil pump are new, and I had quite a bit of machine work done on the cylinder head.  Does anyone know of someone I can send this to for analysis?  It is a good idea to make sure the problem is actually a bearing before I tear everything down.

Offline tauruck

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1433 on: October 24, 2013, 10:55:13 PM »
Bo, some guys don't take as many precautions as you'd expect. They don't clean customer parts after working them as you might.  I'm hoping that you have a minor problem and that it's not a bearing. Maybe a second filter test might come up clean. I'd do that before doing a tear down.

Offline charlie101

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1434 on: October 25, 2013, 02:53:08 AM »
I agree, when there is not larger or more particles than that, a second filter test might come up clean. Otherwise you have the excellent site Bobistheoilguy, where they debate all things oil and there is several contacts for oil analys, maybe close to you.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1435 on: October 26, 2013, 10:02:16 PM »
The oil and filter used at B'ville are on the bike.  I will check them tomorrow.

The nose shape I had this year was costing me speed.  The first picture was from when I made it and it shows the rounded shape it had.  The lower part of the nose caught air and it is was pushed down into the opening in front of the engine.  This was a high drag situation.  The air was shoved down into a confined space where it had to change direction and velocity a lot of times before it escaped.  All of this took a lot of energy to do.  Also, the shape contributed to front end lift at speed.

The nose is reshaped so the air is shoved to the sides.  The air following the flow path around the sides of the bike has fewer velocity and direction changes.  Less drag results.  Also, there is less front end lift.

   

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1436 on: October 26, 2013, 10:09:50 PM »
The first picture is of an old 1000cc Suzuki air cooled road racer and it produced a little over 100 hp per liter.  Almost all of those air cooled bikes in the last year or two they raced, before water cooling, had large openings in the fronts of the fairings for cooling.  That is one thing I left alone on the fairing.  It still has a plenty big hole in the front. 

Offline charlie101

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1437 on: October 27, 2013, 09:27:48 AM »
Here's a quite interesting compilation of oil analysis based on quite a lot of data, albeit of car engines in normal usage, but it enlighten one very important topic: statistical normalcy. And it will kill some of the "well known facts" that we think we know. Like frequent oil changes is better for the engine. New oil is in fact wearing more on the engine than when it is used a while!

One thing that I think I can read out of it is that car oil filters of today are of pretty good quality!

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1438 on: October 28, 2013, 01:17:32 AM »
It seems the oil analysis works if a testing program is set up from the beginning with enough samples and history to make a statistically valid baseline.  This is what I got out of reading all that stuff on Bob the Oil Guy's site.  That is what I am going to do with the new motor.  I will save all of my filter papers so I can see if there are any changes that indicate things are not normal.

This is something to worry about.  Parts for these engines are very expensive and they do have a history of spinning main bearings and sometimes rod bearings.  None of the people I know can say why.  The used cylinder head I recently bought came from a motor that spun a main bearing.

The filter I looked at today was used for two runs on the salt and the 2013 dyno work.  It had some flakes and there were much fewer of them than the break in filter paper.  The flakes were looked at under a microscope.  They could be bearing surface flakes or machining chips.  It is hard to tell.  My figuring is, if it was a bearing shell, I would see more chips on the newer paper than on the old one.  I think everything is OK.     

Offline tauruck

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1439 on: October 28, 2013, 06:54:51 PM »
That's good news Bo. I'm glad you didn't have to strip the motor. :cheers: