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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 1029694 times)

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Offline tauruck

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1410 on: October 14, 2013, 08:24:52 AM »
Dude, that's a great photo. Nice one Gretchen!!!
 Bo,  did you ever contact my guy at Royal Purple?.

Offline bak189

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1411 on: October 14, 2013, 09:55:34 AM »
Good book on turbo, super charging and giggle gas for M/C'S by Joe Haile....
Tech book series, Whitehorse Press, North Conway, New Hampshire, USA.

"Motorcycle Turbocharging, Supercharging & Nitrous Oxide"..................
Question authority.....always

Offline Sumner

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1412 on: October 14, 2013, 03:02:47 PM »
Two turbos are offered to me at no cost.  This catches me by surprise and I have no idea if they will work.  All of the books I find are for cars and not bikes.  Is there a good reference to give me the info I need to figure out if they will be the right size?

First whose turbos are they and do you have the model and can you find maps for them?

The best source for sizing/finding a turbo for an application is Borg Warner's MatchBot....

http://www.turbodriven.com/performanceturbos/matchbot.aspx

.... it is best used with their turbos but they probably won't work for this application.  Still use their interactive program and then take the pressure ratios and air flows at the different rpm/boost points and plot them on the turbo map for the turbo you are considering.

I have more on how to do that on this two pages...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20hooley-construction-2013-1-a.html

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20hooley-construction-2013-1-b.html

I would not use any turbo unless I had a turbo map for it and I could plot my needs on it unless it was a turbo that was well know to work in the application.

You can find two turbos that will support say 800 HP but not for the same motor.  One might be for a small cu. in. motor that needs a turbo that puts out the air flow at a very high boost.  The other motor might be large cu. in. and needs a lot of air at a low boost.  We ran into that with Hooley's 572.  We are looking for about 700-800 HP per turbo and the ones we selected will do that, but would be better suited to a smaller displacement motor.  Of course the ones that would be ideal are priced above our budget.

Squirrel Performance ...

http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/

... also has a program but it doesn't consider as many things as the MatchBot does.  Here is a map showing  Squirrel's data for the 572 at 1400 HP for a T-76 turbo ...



.... The calculated air flow and pressure ratios at different rpm's/HP fell nicely on the map.

Next I took the data from MatchBot and plotted it on the T-76 map....



.... and you can see that the last two points are going off the map.

The T-76 might of worked according to the Squirrel program, but the MatchBot made if look more iffy.

Play with them all, but make sure you have a map for the turbo you are considering or you might not have a good match at all,

Sum
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 03:06:01 PM by Sumner »

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1413 on: October 14, 2013, 11:20:47 PM »
Jon, the head was taken off to send it out for flow testing after B-ville.  Everything looked just great with no signs of detonation and the plug electrodes showed the timing curve was OK.  The bike had a 600 mile break in on the street and it is so fast that I could not run it with high enough combustion chamber pressure for a long enough time to blow out the carbon.  I think I did that on the first run down the salt and glowing pieces of carbon caused some erratic combustion.  There was no knock light indicated detonation on the second run.

There are some good articles on turbos in CarCraft and Hot Rod magazines on the internet.  Duttweiler and other famous tuners had a lot to say that is the opposite of what I thought I knew.  Basically, I am on the right track by building a very strong engine with a good flowing head and a moderate compression ratio.  There are some modern turbos with low back pressure, interchangeable parts to alter their capacities as needed without having to redo everything in order to change to a different turbo, and with excellent tech support.  It will be smart for me to start out with the best stuff I can afford and work from there rather than using something from a snowmobile.

Jon, Sum, and Bak, this stuff you linked me up with I will read.  Thanks.

Mike, the Royal Purple is good oil.  My local dealer helps me and I use their lubes to give them publicity.  This limits me to Mobil 1 or Silkolene.  I had some tech questions.  Mobil gave me answers and they sure sounded like public relations men or lawyer responses.  Not really what I needed.  Silkolene referred me to the oil chemist that developed the oil and another expert.  Most of us technical guys are on the same level and we can talk to each other no matter who we work for.  They gave me direct and honest answers and that made me choose their oil.   

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1414 on: October 16, 2013, 08:05:57 PM »
Thanks for the post showing the islands.  It took awhile and I finally figured it out.  This turbo stuff is plenty mental.  It is an "after Australia" task.  I am pretty sure Matt Capri has a turbo setup figured out and I can by it. 

Rose has watched me rebuild everything on a bunch of cars, bikes, and all sorts of other vehicles out on a concrete slab in the sun, rain, and snow.  It never bothered me much, even now.  She has said for years that I need a shed.  A few days ago she got together with a bunch of friends who build things and started the job.  It will be a 12' x 16.5' carriage shed with two swing out doors on the front and a little side door.  Just big enough to work on bikes or a little Model B roadster.     

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1415 on: October 16, 2013, 08:37:28 PM »
Wobbly, the ladies in your life form an awesome support group. You're a very lucky man.  :-D :-D :-D

Pete

Offline tauruck

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1416 on: October 16, 2013, 11:37:17 PM »
I second that. Some builders over here could take lessons on that foundation. I see the inspector is checking out the progress. Is Rose building the shed to be for her stuff or are you going to requisition it?. :-D

Offline salt27

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1417 on: October 16, 2013, 11:45:26 PM »
That cat can't believe its luck.   :-D

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1418 on: October 17, 2013, 12:05:27 AM »
This is a backwoods special.  Rose did not want to trouble the building inspector.  They have such a hard job as it is.  We can build up to 200 sf floor area without a permit.

We never recovered from the recession and there are all sorts of skilled people out of work who are glad to do anything.  This project would be unaffordable in normal times.  Rose is doing things on it.  I am at work when all of this is happening so I do not see them build it.

That is Buster, the shop cat.  What you say about him is true.     

Online Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1419 on: October 17, 2013, 09:28:57 AM »
Bo, would you please be so kind as to send rose and her chums to Skandia, Michigan?  I've got plenty of room for a new workshop/shed, and I'd even provide them with free lunches and the phone number of the local lumber yard.  We live way out in the township -- building permits are a formality that many of us out here elect to forgo, so we wouldn't be restricted on size.

PM me for the address and to get flight information.  Thanks. :roll:
Jon E. Wennerberg
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 (that's way up north)
2 Club member x2
Owner of landracing.com

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1420 on: October 17, 2013, 09:04:01 PM »
Allow me see what this structure looks like when it is done.  Before I make any recommendations.  Do you remember that poem "This is the house Jack built?"

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1421 on: October 20, 2013, 12:13:45 AM »
The new 2013 Triumph has fuel injection.  It runs as a closed loop system at idle and lower throttle openings.  It is adaptive in the sense that readings are taken from the oxygen sensor and the fuel mixture is adjusted as needed to optimize it.  The system is open loop at larger throttle openings and it works from the fueling map that is programmed into it.

In a single day's riding here we can go from near sea level to over 6,000 feet elevation, from humid to dry air, and with a 20 to 30 degree temperature change.  Also, the gasoline can have from zero to 20 percent alcohol added and be oxygenated during the winter season.

It is popular here to select an aftermarket map for specified performance modifications, to install the map, to make the modifications, and to disconnect the oxygen sensors.  These maps are made to be used as open loop systems, only.  The common thought here is the air pressure, air temperature, and throttle position sensors are adequate to adjust the mixture for varying air density and a closed loop system is not needed.  My thoughts are this might be true, but how does the open loop system adjust the mixture for the wide range oxygen content in fuels?  Is it better to use a closed loop system when fuel oxygen content can significantly vary?

LSR racing is done at full throttle and the Triumph EFI system is in open loop mode and working from a map.  This seems to have the same disadvantage as a carb - the lack of feedback to adapt the mixture to actual conditions.  It appears from reading that most racing EFI systems are closed loop at full throttle.  Am I right on this?

This brings me to the last question and it assumes racing EFI systems are closed loop at full throttle.  Has anyone figured out how to make a Triumph EFI system work in this manner?

Lots of questions.  This EFI stuff is a new experience for this cave man.


Offline THRUXTONERICH

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1422 on: October 20, 2013, 04:28:30 AM »
The new 2013 Triumph has fuel injection.  It runs as a closed loop system at idle and lower throttle openings.  It is adaptive in the sense that readings are taken from the oxygen sensor and the fuel mixture is adjusted as needed to optimize it.  The system is open loop at larger throttle openings and it works from the fueling map that is programmed into it.

In a single day's riding here we can go from near sea level to over 6,000 feet elevation, from humid to dry air, and with a 20 to 30 degree temperature change.  Also, the gasoline can have from zero to 20 percent alcohol added and be oxygenated during the winter season.

It is popular here to select an aftermarket map for specified performance modifications, to install the map, to make the modifications, and to disconnect the oxygen sensors.  These maps are made to be used as open loop systems, only.  The common thought here is the air pressure, air temperature, and throttle position sensors are adequate to adjust the mixture for varying air density and a closed loop system is not needed.  My thoughts are this might be true, but how does the open loop system adjust the mixture for the wide range oxygen content in fuels?  Is it better to use a closed loop system when fuel oxygen content can significantly vary?

LSR racing is done at full throttle and the Triumph EFI system is in open loop mode and working from a map.  This seems to have the same disadvantage as a carb - the lack of feedback to adapt the mixture to actual conditions.  It appears from reading that most racing EFI systems are closed loop at full throttle.  Am I right on this?

This brings me to the last question and it assumes racing EFI systems are closed loop at full throttle.  Has anyone figured out how to make a Triumph EFI system work in this manner?

Lots of questions.  This EFI stuff is a new experience for this cave man.


Turbo- and EFI-Bonneville?? Have a look here, J├Ârgen Lindskog has been building turbo/efi-bonnevilles for many years.... http://www.stabbarps-auto.com/welcome.html

Offline joea

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1423 on: October 20, 2013, 12:13:43 PM »
open loop can work well, closed loop can work well, efi can work well
metered fuel leaks (aka carburetors) can work well, store bought systems
triumph specific from Capri, and even a local to me guy turboconnection.com can
work well, fabbing your own can save alot of money and work as well....

Offline SaltPeter

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1424 on: October 20, 2013, 10:32:14 PM »
Bo, as far as I know, most Race EFI systems are Open Loop. The map is set on the safe side based on AFR readings and left,

or

If you have the Data and the knowledge of your system, can be adjusted according to the conditions on Race Day if you are chasing every last bit of Power.

Check this stuff out maybe

This site has a lot of info and looks like a good place to start with the basics

http://www.enginebasics.com

These are a few Books, I have read the Bell Books, and found them really helpful in understanding the fundamentals of Turbo/EFI set ups.

Engine Management Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish. (Has been recommended on a number of Forums)

Maximum Boost by Corky Bell.

Forced Induction Performance Tuning by A. Graham Bell

Have a look around there is a lot of info out there, but I had to get the basics down first and then go from there, I am by no means an expert, I am like you learning and listening.

Pete :cheers:

The Mission is to go as fast as possible along on that old Road Less Traveled.