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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 1015186 times)

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Offline Jon

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1125 on: March 24, 2013, 02:35:18 AM »
Why don't you run the airbox on the street Bo?, your running it on the race motor?

what fuel are you using, I'll check out suppliers here if you want

jon
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1126 on: March 25, 2013, 11:19:08 PM »
Some folks from our local Triumph club are following the build and I put that in the diary for them and others who wonder about air boxes.  I would run the box on the race bike except the plenum volume and tuned length are set for mid range power.  It is too much trouble to use it for the street setup 'cause I switch back and forth from street to race yearly.  It is hard to get the box out.  All sorts of stuff needs to come off.

The Sunoco EXO2 costs $103 for a five gallon can and it has a two year storage life.  Not bad.  That is plenty for some dyno work, two events, and some left over for the dirt bikes.  It has a 10% oxygen content by weight.  What do I get for the money?

The recommended stoichiometric ratio is 13.2 to one and air has a 21 percent oxygen content.  For 1# of fuel/gas mixture:  (13.2 / 14.2) x 0.21 = 0.195# oxygen per pound of mixture.

The fuel contribution:  (1/14.2) x 0.1 = 0.007# oxygen per pound of mixture.

(0.007 / 0.195) x 100 = 3.5%  The oxygen enrichment in the fuel increases the total oxygen content 3.5%.

This isn't much.  It tell me two things.  First, the fuel must be optimal for the motor in all other respects if this will be a benefit.  It is easy to be off that much if the burn rate or something else does not match the engine's needs.  Then no increased performance would happen.  Second, it is basically a gasoline.  It is like pulling out a banana in a gunfight as compared to nitrous and the other flammables the competition will be using in the fuel class.  I will use it.  I need all of these little increases that I can get and I ordered the can before I did all of this math and logical thinking.

Offline Cereal KLR

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1127 on: March 26, 2013, 08:29:33 PM »
Oh I like those copper inlets! Making anymore for the great unwashed? Agreed on airbox removal,you have to take the back half of the bike off to get it out. I went to K&N style over the foam pods and basically gutted the airbox so still had a place to mount the electrics.

Also interesting about the oxygenated fuel as I was hoping to try some at Bub`s this year.
I thought I would die young, but now its too late.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1128 on: March 26, 2013, 10:09:49 PM »
Jon, the plan is to compare Sunoco Standard, a 106 motor octane leaded gas with specific gravity 0.729 and no added oxygen to the Sunoco EX02, a 100 motor octane leaded gas with specific gravity 0.750 and 10% added oxygen.  The comparison will be as scientific as I can do on the dyno.  Then I will know what gas I will buy.  I will use Sunoco, either way.

Cereal, I will look through my scrap pile and see what materials I have.     

Offline tauruck

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1129 on: March 27, 2013, 09:22:15 AM »
Bo, you really go into detail. If there was an award on the forum for extracting the last drop of power from a motor it would have to to you. I'm getting schooled here big time. I admire and respect the way you go about your racing. You inspire me. :cheers:

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1130 on: March 28, 2013, 12:06:32 AM »
Hi Mike.  My Toyota truck is so well engineered that anything I do to it makes it run worse.  The little dirt bike is faster than I am so not much can be done with it.  That leaves the Triumph as the only thing left so my attention is focused on it.

There are three brands of race fuel sold here and in AUS.  VP is one and it is different here and in AUS.  They have VP "Roo" and "Dingo," etc.  Can't get that here.  ERC is sold in both countries.  The availability of it in AUS is hard to determine from the internet.  They have very little presence on the net.  AUS is a big country and I do not want to drive all over looking for gas.  Sunoco is readily available in my neighborhood and it is found in a lot of places in AUS.  They look to be the same fuels here and there, too.  It is the obvious choice for me for that reason.  I have never used it.  I always use ERC, some leaded fuel from the local "Time" gas station, or in the old days, airplane gas.

The Sunoco Standard is a basic leaded gas that is similar to ERC 110K.  The 110K is what Matt Capri recommends.  It has plenty of octane and a moderate 0.729 specific gravity.  Jetting for Standard gives me, with an altitude adjustment, a mixture I can use with the 110K at B'ville, or with no adjustment, a mixture for Gairdner.  I expect to run less spark advance with this quicker burning gas.

The Sunoco EXO2 is a denser gas with a 0.750 specific gravity.  It is likely it will have a slower burn.  It has no equivalent gas in other brands that I know of.  If I am jetted for it and cannot get it I will need to guess at the best size.  I expect to need more spark advance for this slower burning gas.

The object of all of this is to select the ignition timing for each fuel so the peak pressure in the combustion chamber happens when the piston is in the optimal position on the down stroke.  This engine is the opposite of the old Brit bikes I am used to.  It is extremely oversquare, the combustion chambers have different shapes, the pistons are flat topped with the plugs in the center of the chambers, and it has a low rod length to stroke ratio.  The rules used to tune the old motors might not apply.  I have no idea how it will react to the different fuels.  This is the part of tuning that is hard to do by theory and there is no substitute for dyno time.       

Offline grumm441

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1131 on: March 28, 2013, 04:07:40 AM »
Bo
These guys are near me, although I do always have to check that they have things in stock before I go there
G

http://www.vpw.com.au/Category/Index/374756
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Offline fredvance

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1132 on: March 28, 2013, 09:32:25 AM »
What is your compression ratio?? I forgot. :roll:
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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1133 on: March 28, 2013, 01:24:18 PM »
WW, Rick Gold at ERC is pretty easy to find -- and he should be able to help you figure out about availability in Oz.  I don't have his email with me right now -- but go to ERCracingfuels.com (I think that's it -- you might have to search if I've got it wrong) and use the "contact us" link.  It works -- and last time I tried I got a same-day response.
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1134 on: March 28, 2013, 11:36:23 PM »
Grumm, they have what I need, gas wise.

Fred, static is 11.5 to 1, dynamic at Gairdner is 10.1 to 1, dynamic at B'ville is 9.3 to 1

The volumetric efficiency is around 110%.  The cylinder volume is 994 / 2 = 497cc  The calculated combustion chamber volume is 47.44cc

The compression ratio at peak power rpm = [1.10 x (497 + 47.44)] / 47.44 = 12.6 to 1

Slim, I contacted ERC.   

Offline fredvance

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1135 on: March 29, 2013, 09:18:12 AM »
IMHO Erc's 110 is way too high octane for your  motor. I run the 110  in my 16-1 motor. My 13-1 motor I run MULB in gas class and VP mr12 in fuel class. Call VP's tech line they are very knowledgable and helpful, as is Rick at ERC.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 09:19:59 AM by fredvance »
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1136 on: March 31, 2013, 02:04:41 PM »
Strangely, MULB is not listed in the US as an ERC fuel.  It is available in AUS as Max-ULB.

Too many hours of last night were looking for a lower octane substitute for ERC-110K.  The 110K has a 0.730 specific gravity.  This means it has a lot of the lighter fractions of gasoline and the burn speed is moderately high.  I need this so I looked at fuels with similar specific gravities in the 0.725 to 0.735 range.

The 110K distillation in degrees F at 10% is 167, at 50% is 225, and at 90% is 257.  A fuel with high distillation temps will keep the inlet tract cooler.  Twin cylinder bikes inherently have worse combustion chamber cooling than the equivalent sized fours.  There is less metal to carry the heat away.  Considering this is an air cooled engine with almost double the power it had new, cracking the cyl head between the valve seat and the plug hole is a big worry.  I looked for fuels, leaded and unleaded,with distillation temps similar to the 110K and within the S.G. range.  The closest are VP110 and Sunoco Standard.  That can of Sunoco MO2X I just bought will go into the dirt bikes.  It has distillation temps far lower than the 110K.  That was an easy decision.  I have a small fortune tied up in the Triumph cylinder head.

Jon, I am having a hard time communicating with ERC AUS over the web.  Is ERC 110K available and does the DLRA have government permission to buy it? 

Offline Jon

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1137 on: April 01, 2013, 05:59:05 AM »
I'll give them a try on the phone Bo.

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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1138 on: April 01, 2013, 09:58:08 PM »
Thanks, Jon.  The ERC folks here gave me an AUS phone number to call it would cost me a fortune.  They also gave me an internet address and I got no response.  That Western Australia race gas distributor has all sorts of good info about fuels on their website.

My father told me to not over-octane motors, too.  He recommended using the lowest octane possible that would have a controlled burn.  He said too much octane deadened the gas and too much of the burn happened when the piston was too far down toward bottom dead center.  A couple of fuel experts are saying that the fuel composition and specific gravity have more influence on burn speed and the octane properties are just about resistance to detonation.

In the past I have run the Triumph on the ERC MULB, a lower octane unleaded and the ERC 110K, a much higher octane leaded.  I did not do any back to back comparisons.  The bike ran just great on either one.  This leads me to think the folks that are telling me that octane and burn speed are not related are correct.

These things are air cooled and the top of the combustion chamber is way down between two tall cam towers.  A fellow came over from France on a naturally aspirated Bonneville like mine a few years ago.  He cracked the head and his race was done.  My cylinder head is ported with bigger valves and there is not a lot of metal between the valves.  I am sorta worried about excess heat for this reason.

Matt Capri, who developed the parts I use said "Use 110K in that bike."  He is semi retired now and I only see him once a year at Bonneville.  I asked myself, "What is special about 110K?"  I noticed it has high temperature values in its distillation curve and they are very high compared to gasolines with ethanol.  ERC says "ERC 110K has demonstrated a superior convective cooling coefficient related to extracting heat from the combustion chamber during periods of overlap flow."  This homeboy thinks this means it runs cool.               

My choice is ERC 110K, Sunoco Standard, or VP 110.  All have similar specific gravities so the jetting for one should work with any other.  All have relatively high distillation temperatures compared to their stablemates.  These are traditional blends so they should be easy to find.  I am not a fuel expert.  Is my reasoning reasonable or am I full of carp? 

Offline saltwheels262

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Re: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners
« Reply #1139 on: April 02, 2013, 08:45:54 PM »
imo your father was right.
I believe too much octane ~~
         will make a motor-- harder to start
                                         run hotter
                                         make less power
bub '07 - 140.293 a/pg   120" crate street mill  
bub '10 - 158.100  sweetooth gear
lta  7/11 -163.389  7/17/11; 3 run avg.-162.450
ohio -    - 185.076 w/#684      
lta 8/14  - 169.xxx. w/sw2           
'16 -- 0 runs ; 0 events -- made a 2 state change in ZIP codes

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