Author Topic: Diesel Truck Discussion  (Read 23214 times)

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McRat

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2009, 11:48:42 AM »
DOH!  Didn't see this.

The event diesel last year was just #2 ULSD from the truck stop pump.  ERC had Johnny go to the truck stop and fill a drum for the event at SW. 

Our "race gas" is now cheaper than regular 87 unleaded.  :-D  Gotta love diesel hotrodding.  :cheers:

I do wish they would permit biodiesel also which makes less HP than pump fuel, simply because it's a good PR thingy for diesel technology.

Offline Stainless Two

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2009, 06:32:50 PM »
This IS racing...Would you really trade performance for "political correctness"?  I mean, really, your machine is a monster diesel.  It is the fastest in the world in that class, and you want to give ground to a huge crowd of people that will not accept you no matter what you concede? They want you in an electric, or at the very least a "smart" car.

Now maybe for a biodiesel class?  That may gain traction without compromise...just a thought...just my (maybe) young and ignorant view of course...no offense meant in any case...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 09:13:51 AM by Stainless Two »
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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2009, 11:27:01 PM »
Serious truck racing in LSR is relatively new in the grand scheme of things. I have a seeking suspicion that rules governing the trucks will become more defined in the next 4-5 years.

As much as I dislike diesel trucks in general I have to admit that the technology and performance gains made in the last 10 years are quite impressive to say the least.

There has been some real gains in the MPH numbers posted by trucks in the last few meets.
Clearly trucks (and or diesel trucks) would be an interesting area for a future LSR project.

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2009, 10:30:51 AM »
Okay, JH -- a philosophical statement deserves a query:  Why do you dislike diesel trucks in general?  I guess I'll also ask you to mention whether your dislike is for a specific "size" -- semi-type, medium duty (delivery, for instance), pickup (both full-size and mini) -- or the basic diesel engine (sparkless) concept.  I'm curious, that's all.
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2009, 05:13:42 PM »
Boy -- they are the hottest new thing!  Get on the bandwagon!  Let's get some more classes!  Gee -- there's only 13 classes now available and already three have been entered for SpeedWeek!

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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2009, 05:58:52 PM »
Quote
Okay, JH -- a philosophical statement deserves a query:  Why do you dislike diesel trucks in general?  I guess I'll also ask you to mention whether your dislike is for a specific "size" -- semi-type, medium duty (delivery, for instance), pickup (both full-size and mini) -- or the basic diesel engine (sparkless) concept.  I'm curious, that's all.


I don’t have any real problems with the motors themselves other than they stink and are noisy.

My issue is the hundreds of big diesel (Chev, Dodge and Ford) trucks driving around Portland that have never been used for anything other than running to the grocery store. The beds in these trucks don’t have a scratch in the bed or ever had a stinger put in the hitch…..but for whatever reason they feel they need 100,000 pound towing ablilty, a 6” exhaust and engine brake that rattles you windows every time it drives by at 2am.



 
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Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2009, 06:19:38 PM »
I agree.  Too many around here are louder than un-muffled Harleys (of which there are many too many).

Mike
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Offline Roadster943

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2009, 09:32:44 PM »

   So its not the diesel trucks thats the problem its just the way people use or missuse them and law enforcements general failure to inforce some laws? Just want to get this straight. :-D
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McRat

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2009, 10:34:27 PM »
While a 6800lb diesel pickup will get better mileage than a 5000lb gasoline pickup in many cases, unless you tow heavy, and often, the economics aren't there due to the higher initial cost.  The heavier the load, the more the diesel makes sense with trucks, but like JH said, most folk use them for lighter duties.  

That being said, new diesels pickups are also among the most powerful trucks sold currently.   The 09 Chevy Duramax makes 365HP at the brochure, which is more HP than the supercharged Ford Lightning pickups made, IIRC.  A test drive at your local GM/Ford/Dodge dealer will explain why they are big sellers.  The new diesel pickups are quiet, smooth, fast, and very well appointed.  And they just feel right.  

They have come a very long way in 10 years.

What attracts a lot of diesel pickup owners now is hotrodding them.  There is not anything comparable.  You can double the factory engine output very easy.  Take a 400HP Corvette and see what it takes to make 800HP, or any other vehicle.  My first Duramax dyno'd 245rwhp when new.  Exhaust and tuning brought the power up to 502rwhp.  It's not dyno stroking though.  The truck ran 17.6 @ 78mph in the quarter mile when new, then 13.1@103 after tuning.  Race weight was ~7100lb (3500 4x4 long bed crew cab).  Plug those #'s into a HP calculator as see what it says.  Mileage improved about 10% in the process.  

If you are so inclined, you can have a daily driver that can go 0-60mph in 4 seconds, get 23mpg highway, haul 4000lb in the bed, or tow a 14,000lb trailer safely.  And still commute in comfort with all the standard amenities, with no worries about smog testing.  Could you build a gasoline vehicle to do that?  Dunno.  I know you can with a diesel.








McRat

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2009, 10:40:33 AM »
This IS racing...Would you really trade performance for "political correctness"?  I mean, really, your machine is a monster diesel.  It is the fastest in the world in that class, and you want to give ground to a huge crowd of people that will not accept you no matter what you concede? They want you in an electric, or at the very least a "smart" car.

Now maybe for a biodiesel class?  That may gain traction without compromise...just a thought...just my (maybe) young and ignorant view of course...no offense meant in any case...

Running biodiesel could perhaps net you sponsorship from biodiesel shops.  They are often looking for marketing opportunities that show biodiesel to be "good stuff".

Here's what I know about diesel fuel:

Biodiesel or veggie oil will make about 4% less power, but that just means we have to inject more of it.  It has a slight advantage at high rpm.

Synthetic diesel is made from natural gas, makes slightly more power, and has better high RPM operation and lower emissions.  Some of this is already being blended into petro fuel, and it will increase as supplies increase.  Some countries get a lot of this fuel, if not all.  Dubai is the largest exporter.

You can increase high RPM performance by using Cetane boosters.  Higher cetane ratings allow the fuel to ignite easier and burn faster.  2EHN is the most common, and is a major ingredient in off-the-shelf diesel fuel additives.

Shell blends a special roadracing fuel for Audi for low smoke and high RPM performance.  This is not available to the average racer.

For cold areas in the winter, the pump fuel is often mixed different, we call this Winter Fuel.  It makes less power, but does not gell as easy, which is a real problem with diesels in cold weather.  If you wonder why your mileage drops in the winter in snow areas, this is the reason.

Red diesel is for off-road use only.  It contains a red dye for the DOT to detect.  It is normal #2 unless otherwise labeled.  No road taxes are added to it.  You will rue the day you are caught with it on the street, as the fine can be $10k.

#1 diesel is pretty close to plain kerosene, and is seldom used anymore.  Don't run this in your late model engines.  Usually it's red fuel anyhow, IIRC.

We run only normal #2 pump fuel with no additives and pure water mist to save the turbine from melting. 

But unlike spark ignition fuel, there is no Super Fuel for diesels.  Normal #2 pump diesel is just about as powerful as anything you can use.  Yes, for high RPM engines, improving the cetane will improve performance, but nothing like methanol or nitromethane does with spark engines.  Our high cetane fuel mixes are perhaps equivalent to what is called gasoline by the SCTA.  SCTA gasoline is not pump gas, which is 91 octane often cut with ethanol, very crappy stuff.  Why diesels are limited to pump fuel?  This I can't answer.  I have a feeling though, that it was because there was not much known about it, so they "played it safe".

If a hardcore diesel racer ever gets the ear of the SCTA, I imagine they will just drop the whole "event diesel" thingy.  Having gasoline guys determine what is and isn't diesel fuel, is like asking a priest for sex advice.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 11:07:15 AM by McRat »

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2009, 11:12:40 AM »
Okay, now I get it.  No big deal, JH -- I understand, and am not all that convinced that many of the folks with diesel engines in their pickups need 'em, either.  The diesel option in my '04 Duramax was about $7 grand -- mostly in motor and transmission (then the Allison was only available with the diesel and the diesel wasn't available without the Allison).  We bought it for heavy hauling (probably about 60,000 miles out of the 200,000 on it have been with trailer of one sort or another behind, including up to the 7,000# three-axle equipment trailer loaded with the 4-ton Bobcat skidsteer).  We also wanted the deep torque for towing over the mountains -- which means way fewer downshifts to crest the hills, and that means far better "driveability" -- less noise and stress on the passengers.  And the fuel economy is important, too -- although our timing was about perfect in that the price of diesel jumped to more than the price of gasoline just when we bought the pickup.  It's only in the last month or so the diesel is FINALLY back down below gas.  The noise issue is not a valid one in our Duramax, I'm happy to report.  It is very comparable to that of a gasoline engine -- and I run factory stock exhaust minus the muffler.  No 6" pipe, no exhaust brake, etc.

The short answer -- is that we've got about 200k miles on the truck and have, indeed, got our $7000 investment back because of the various things I've mentioned above.  Better still -- the truck isn't showing many signs of age, so I'll get more "back" from the diesel engine as time (and miles) go by.

Okay -- back to racing.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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McRat

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2009, 11:31:21 AM »
Other thoughts.

I'm just a guy who likes to drive too fast on the weekends, so reading what I write on the subject is suspect.  I've been wrong before, ask my kids.

But think about this.  When spark ignition was the king of the air, the military spent millions developing special fuels to increase the performance of aircraft engines for fighters and bombers.  

The diesel engine shares more in common with the jet engine than it does with spark engines as far as combustion goes.  You can run jet fuel in your diesel truck if you add some lubricity additive to the fuel like Stanadyne.  Your truck will make a little less power though.  So you would think there is a Super Fuel that powers military jets.  IIRC, an F-15 runs off of JP-8 which isn't significantly different than normal commercial Jet A.  They are experimenting with using synthetic fuel in the F-15 made from natural gas, and the performance is identical.

Yes, there are special fuels for certain aircraft like the SR-71 and U2, but these have to do more with high altitude engine behavior than thrust gains.

McRat

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2009, 11:42:25 AM »
Okay, now I get it.  No big deal, JH -- I understand, and am not all that convinced that many of the folks with diesel engines in their pickups need 'em, either.  The diesel option in my '04 Duramax was about $7 grand -- mostly in motor and transmission (then the Allison was only available with the diesel and the diesel wasn't available without the Allison).  We bought it for heavy hauling (probably about 60,000 miles out of the 200,000 on it have been with trailer of one sort or another behind, including up to the 7,000# three-axle equipment trailer loaded with the 4-ton Bobcat skidsteer).  We also wanted the deep torque for towing over the mountains -- which means way fewer downshifts to crest the hills, and that means far better "driveability" -- less noise and stress on the passengers.  And the fuel economy is important, too -- although our timing was about perfect in that the price of diesel jumped to more than the price of gasoline just when we bought the pickup.  It's only in the last month or so the diesel is FINALLY back down below gas.  The noise issue is not a valid one in our Duramax, I'm happy to report.  It is very comparable to that of a gasoline engine -- and I run factory stock exhaust minus the muffler.  No 6" pipe, no exhaust brake, etc.

The short answer -- is that we've got about 200k miles on the truck and have, indeed, got our $7000 investment back because of the various things I've mentioned above.  Better still -- the truck isn't showing many signs of age, so I'll get more "back" from the diesel engine as time (and miles) go by.

Okay -- back to racing.

LB7 or LLY engine?  2004 both models were produced.  The LB7 has a wastegated IHI turbo with hidden injectors, the LLY has the AVNT Garrett turbo with adjustable vane turbine and exposed injectors.  If your 8th digit in the VIN is 1, LB7, 2=LLY IIRC.  We have a 2004 LLY with about 90,000 used mainly for towing, and has been pretty much trouble free.  High altitude performance is very good on the Duramax, regardless of year, and is a very good reason to have one if you tow in the mountains.

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2009, 03:21:56 PM »
Without going for the walk to look -- I've got an LLY.  Second half of the year/production run, higher HP rating from the manufacturer, right?

Another thing I didn't mention in my story was my faithful adherence to a regular oil change schedule.  I put in Rotella synthetic 5W40 every 25,000 miles or so, changing filter then -- and half-way between oil changes.  Make up oil is on the order of 1-2 quarts every filter change (plus what I need to replace from that filter change).
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McRat

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Re: Diesel Truck Discussion
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2009, 03:35:01 PM »
Yup, LLY.  2004 LB7 was 300HP/560ftlb IIRC, and 2004.5 LLY was 310HP/590 (Blue), then 310/605 in 05 (Casper).

If you haven't done it already, adding a ~50hp tune to it normally increases mileage with no side effects.  Our 04 LLY has been "tuned up" it's whole life.  It runs a 4" straight pipe exhaust (no cat) and it's not loud.

If you tune them up over 90HP gain, you will eventually wear out the clutches in the trans, but 50HP doesn't have that issue.