Tell Me I'm Still OK in Production Please! But Tell Me the Truth :-)

[Cajun Kid]

Milt,

Hope the changes have the desired result.... More MPH's.... As I recall you only needed a few more MPH to get the record ?

Good luck,,, see you this weekend.

Charles

[MiltonP]

Yep, needed 2 mph and pretty sure I could have done it but they were out of official gas so I so I didn't push it last event.  I went ahead and made these changes which I had planned anyways following the pure stock baseline runs since you never know if conditions will be as favorable. Besides, I had to get rid of that new bike smell!
   

[RansomT]

For what this is worth.

When I got back from Maxton's May event, I did a little dyno testing with the 'Busa's stock exhaust ('00 model).   I used pump gas (93 Shell) and kept the AFR "kinda close" (12.6-13.1 : 1).   My wHP comparison numbers were done for 9K - 10.8K RPMS and the differences shown are basically through-out that RPM range.  This isn't "scientific" because I didn't "tune" the bike to the maximum possible for each part removed/installed.  I just wanted to get a ball park figure for each exhaust component.

My drilled cans (holes internally in the chambers)  cost the bike 3.5 wHP as compared to no cans at all.
OEM cans cost the bike 3 wHP (or 0.5 wHP better than my drilled ones)
The mid-pipes cost nothing, same wHP attached or removed. Just a lot quieter installed.
The stock header, as compared to a Brock street header, cost ~6 wHP.
Installing the mid and can on the Brock Streetsmart, cost 1.5 wHP as compaired to just the Brock header installed.

[MiltonP]

Someday if I have a stock set of cans handy I will run some tests.  In this case, I decided to have faith in the judgement of someone who roadraced fairly successfully on the 500.  I feel pretty sure my main issue, other than fogging up my face shield, last meet was that plus 1 on the front sprocket was a bit too much.  I will put it back to 16 and go minus 1 on the rear thise time out. 

As far as the fogging goes, I will probably put a fog city shield on the helmet.  The rulebook isn't specific about leaving the shield cracked but since the starter wants it down i suppose that is the case.  I wouldn't want it cracked on a unfaired bike but I wouldn't need it either as the vents would be getting plenty of air.  Didn't care much for getting completely fogged up a few hundred feet down the run.   

[Super Kaz]

I think if you were NOT going after the Production Record you would be Fine,but if it's a record run? Impound should{in a Perfect World }notice,and  would disqualify You ?
As stated earlier You must Not be able to see any Mods to qualify for production class records ?
Your Playing with a Big Can of Worms,and Every Production LSR Racer will be watching this Post Like a Hawk !
Keep us Posted and Good Luck this 2009 Season Everyone .................

[RansomT]

Someday if I have a stock set of cans handy I will run some tests.  In this case, I decided to have faith in the judgement of someone who roadraced fairly successfully on the 500.  I feel pretty sure my main issue, other than fogging up my face shield, last meet was that plus 1 on the front sprocket was a bit too much.  I will put it back to 16 and go minus 1 on the rear thise time out. 

As far as the fogging goes, I will probably put a fog city shield on the helmet.  The rulebook isn't specific about leaving the shield cracked but since the starter wants it down i suppose that is the case.  I wouldn't want it cracked on a unfaired bike but I wouldn't need it either as the vents would be getting plenty of air.  Didn't care much for getting completely fogged up a few hundred feet down the run.   

I agree with the +1 front.

I just found it interesting, in my case, that I didn't gain anything (lost 0.5 wHP) by modifiy the OEM cans.

[MiltonP]

The legality of the cans was discussed, at my prompting, but the conclusion was that you are allowed to refinish, ie... paint or rechrome, parts.  In this case it looks like a scratched discolored area but there is no weld bead is there.  Even if it was, I am not sure a weld is considered a performance mod as much as a repair.  All the factory baffle welds are still there.  The end cap was not removed or enlarged.  Per the rules, all performance modifications must be out of view which they are.  Painting, polishing,etc... are not considered performance modifications to the best of my knowledge and I am pretty sure we are allowed to paint/refinish cans.  I believe the spirit of the rule is that visible specs/dimensions have not been altered.  Is can finish a deciding factor considering you can have a race built engine?

RansomT - Others have also there is a possibility that altering the baffles had no positive impact but in your case I am thinking the Busa has much better designed stock exhaust cans than my 500 has.

  

[relaxedfit]

This thread has puzzled me for some time. There is a very short list of things I do know (particularly abou LSR). But some things I do know are:

Many people and indeed events feel that someone not running on a record should not run.

I will probably never run near a record.

Milt, you are knowledgeableabout your bike, dedicated to getting the most out of it that you can, and running for a record.

Many people I admire and readily defer to have expressed interest ( and hterefore approval of) the results of your work.

That the rule book speaks to the appearance of the bike- removing badges, trim, etc.

That the rules for production cars seem more liberal

That I have run a "production" bike that I did not feel was truly production

That ECTA operates on an honor system

But I also know that the rule book states "The only modifications which may or must be made are as follows:" -----

It just seems that production would simply mean-- as produced.

[MiltonP]

Very good point, RelaxedFit, and maybe it means that a change needs to be made to the rulebook.  The previous line states ' Any performance modifications must be out of view.'  It definitely contradicts 'The only modifications which may or must be made are as follows;'  I think the first line should be removed from the rulebook even though it will eliminate me from production class.  I have a feeling though that others won't be happy either though as that means their built engines eliminate them as well.

If the spirit is to allow hidden performance modifications then the second line should read 'The only visible modifications which may...' and I think it should probably have the addition of allowing changes to finishes such as painting, powdercoating and polishing.  I guess this is why we have both street and production classes for the cars.  My 'externally stock' exhaust cans will be powdercoated black as of monday and I will go ahead and enter this meet as P/P again and will hopefully set the record after this gearing change which is also not allowed if we follow the second line in the rulebook.  I expect to pass safety tech and will not argue failing the record inspection or any protests.  All I ask is that the 2010 rulebook is modified so there is no more wiggle room.  I will have learned a valuable lesson about listening to all those who said first thing...clean out those baffles and maybe about posting changes on here!     I leave it to those with major investments in their engines to decide what class they should really be running. 

PS - I really don't want to Plymouth off everybody running in production class but maybe, just maybe, production should really mean production if we want to run our bikes with other organizations assuming that is their interpretation.  Since they don't have 'street' classes, i suggest we skip adding that and just go fight it out in modifieid.  The SS classes for the cars has become a bit of a joke lately anyways with cars that will never face a stoplight running there.

[willieworld]

milton---if the rules said  absolutely stock ---if you broke a record you would have to pull your engine all the way apart and prove that it was in fact stock----the scta inspectors dont have the time and neither do you---how would you like to have to prove that your cams had the stock duration-------now the tech guys check the bore and stroke and you are good to go---thats something that the new people in lsr might not  understand either----if you break a record you have to pull the engine down (with some exceptions ) so better bring your tools and some spare gaskets   willie buchta

im talking about bonneville here 

[MiltonP]

Unfortunately it isn't that clear cut Willie.  One line says 'out of view' while the other says 'The only modifications...'  ECTA has been working hard to get inline with SCTA so that our folks won't run into issues if we run out there but I don't have their rulebook for 2009 to see how it matches up.  It also seems as if BUB may be the one we are more concerned with as many of the bikes are heading for that event versus Speedweek.  I am starting to feel like I may not be very popular following this thread but then again it wasn't like I was 'the man' before.     Guess I can always go run and hide back in the Miata in Super Street.   

[Freud]

Sounds like about  the same results as the CYCLE MAGAZINE tests back in the stone ages.

If drilling some holes made it better, the manufacturer would have done it.

FREUD

[willieworld]

i wish i had the answer ---sheri and i run in the sidecar class --the rules are different than production---but after reading the rules it seems pretty simple to me --external has to be stock ---inside do what you want within your cc class  --i could live with that-- seems like less rules than the sidecar class--and i know that the scta and ecta rules though close are not the same      willie buchta

[Stainless1]

Milton, stop worrying... there is no such thing as a "stock" production class motorcycle running in a LSR event that is competitive.  Everyone mods their bikes.  That is why it says "appear" as produced.  When we lost our production record, the bike that took it ran without their rear fender, the parts manual called it a fender, but they were able to get the factory to change the manual to call it a license plate holder several months after the bike was protested but before the board ruled on the protest (they were factory sponsored and hoped to sell bikes on the record).  Just keep your mods out of view, have fun and be safe.  If you want your mods in view, enter modified... no one ever has a problem with them.

[MiltonP]

Believe me, Stainless, I won't be losing any sleep over this.  Absolutely pure stock, to me anyways, runs counter to the spirit behind land speed racing.  It would be like 'one and done' where someone just goes and buys the most recent hot model, puts a 100 pound rider on it, runs once, sets the record and parks it knowing that is all that could be done with that bike.  Maybe someone with a dealership might enjoy doing that and if there was another street class then let them do so but the fun of season long internal tinkering to get that next tenth would be missing.