Author Topic: Speed of sound calculator?  (Read 4255 times)

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McRat

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Speed of sound calculator?
« on: April 20, 2009, 03:11:28 PM »
Anyone know a speed of sound calculator that uses pressure and temperature of air that goes up to at least 1000°C and 8 bar?

I'm thinking about exhaust pulses in a turbo engine.


Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2009, 03:29:26 PM »
Your first difficulty is that it isn't air. The products of combustion change the molecular makeup of the gas you are trying to calculate.

The presence of water vapor in the exhaust really torques things around.

The pressure pulses affect the speed calculation.

I doubt if there is a calculator that will give you a reasonable approximation.

I would try contacting turbo manufacturers for that information.

Let's assume that the speed was X. What does that tell you? What are you trying to calculate? It sounds like fun!
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

McRat

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 04:37:57 PM »
Much like you do exhaust scavenging with NA engines, by timing the exhaust negative pressure wave, I was wondering if that could be done to reduce the back pressure to increase power on turbo apps; "free" HP.  When the piston is at 90° BTDC on a turbo engine, the drive pressure has it's greatest effect on pumping losses. 

Let's say you have 60 PSIG drive pressure, and 4 inch piston, and a 4 inch stroke.  If my math is right, at the point the piston is 90 BTDC, you have about 125 ft/lb of retarding torque from the drive pressure against the piston.  If you could time the negative pressure wave to be at 90° at your target RPM, you could recover some of that loss.  How much?  Dunno.  Depends on how strong the wave is and it's duration.  But to get a starting point, you need to have a rough guess of what the speed of sound will be.  I think the speed of sound will be higher than 800mph, but I don't know.  1450°F and 75psig would be my starting number.

Offline desotoman

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 05:22:03 PM »
McRat,

I think what you mean is when the connecting rod is 90 degrees to the centerline of the crankshaft. 

I hope that is not as clear as mud. Is that what you mean?

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2009, 05:42:52 PM »
Tom --

I think when the connecting rod is 90º to the vertical crank center line, it would usually be sticking out thru the pan rail (?)

Stan


(Roy Creel has experience with this concept -- picture posted long ago on this site.)
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline desotoman

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2009, 06:21:41 PM »
Thanks Stan, turns out it was mud.

Picture you rotating assembly together in your block, now draw a line from the center-line of the small end of the rod to the center-line of the big end of the rod,(while attached to the crankshaft) Now draw a line from the center-line of the big end of the rod to the center-line of the crankshaft.(Or center-line of main bearings) Rotate assembly until a 90 degree angle is formed on the big end of rod with these two lines. This does not necessarily come out to be 90 degrees BTDC.

Is this any better than my first post, or still as clear as mud.

Tom G.

PS. In the picture N would be where the 90 degree angle I speak of would be.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 06:43:13 PM by desotoman »
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline willieworld

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2009, 06:57:01 PM »
maybe this will help   my motor
                                  crank angle        90 degrees
                              rod bore angle        12.45 degrees
                             rod crank angle        77.55 degrees
                              rotation time             .005 seconds
                                piston depth          1.7329 inches
                                piston f.p.m.           4908.7 f.p.m.
         maybe not                                                                       willie buchta
                               
                           



willie-dpombatmir-buchta

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2009, 07:42:15 PM »
When the outbound energy wave encounters a lower pressure area such as a second or larger diameter section of pipe, or the ambient atmosphere, a reversion wave (a reversed or mirrored wave) is reflected back toward the exhaust valve without significant loss of velocity.

N/A cars utilize exhaust velocity (not backpressure) in the collector to aid in scavenging other cylinders during the blowdown process. It just so happens that to get the appropriate velocity, you have to squeeze down the diameter of the discharge of the collector (aka the exhaust), which also induces backpressure. The backpressure is an undesirable byproduct of the desire to have a certain degree of exhaust velocity. Go too big, and you lose velocity and its associated beneficial scavenging effect. Too small and the backpressure skyrockets, more than offsetting any gain made by scavenging. There is a happy medium here.
   
 For turbo cars, you throw all that out the window. You want the exhaust velocity to be high upstream of the turbine (i.e. in the header). You'll notice that primaries of turbo headers are smaller diameter than those of an n/a car of two-thirds the horsepower. The idea is to get the exhaust velocity up quickly, to get the turbo spooling as early as possible. Here, getting the boost up early is a much more effective way to torque than playing with tuned primary lengths and scavenging. The scavenging effects are small compared to what you'd get if you just got boost sooner instead. You have a turbo; you want boost.

This is the idea for running street, in your case just big pipes for high flow, the spin up time isn't important.

Downstream of the turbine, the turbo exhaust, you want the least backpressure possible. No ifs, ands, or buts. Stick a Hoover on the tailpipe if you can. The general rule of "larger is better" (to the point of diminishing returns) of turbo exhausts is valid. Here, the idea is to minimize the pressure downstream of the turbine in order to make the most effective use of the pressure that is being generated upstream of the turbine. Remember, a turbine operates via a pressure ratio. For a given turbine inlet pressure, you will get the highest pressure ratio across the turbine when you have the lowest possible discharge pressure. This means the turbine is able to do the most amount of work possible (i.e. drive the compressor and make boost) with the available inlet pressure. Shorter is better.

There is going to be scavenging at the collector, but I doubt any advantage would be statistically noticeable at the extreme boost you are running.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

McRat

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 08:11:59 PM »
McRat,

I think what you mean is when the connecting rod is 90 degrees to the centerline of the crankshaft. 

I hope that is not as clear as mud. Is that what you mean?

Tom G.

Yeah, and it's not 90 either. Closer to 80 IIRC, but I do a bunch of "rounding".  Basically the point of max leverage.

McRat

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2009, 08:26:49 PM »
Tom --

I think when the connecting rod is 90º to the vertical crank center line, it would usually be sticking out thru the pan rail (?)

Stan


(Roy Creel has experience with this concept -- picture posted long ago on this site.)

So far, all my diesel rods have had to be removed with tools.  Can't say that for my first VW though.  I've shortened diesel rods, and I punched two of them through cylinder walls last year, but so far they have not outright failed.  I thought about selling them on Ebay as "low hour" used parts ...

McRat

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 08:28:34 PM »
When the outbound energy wave encounters a lower pressure area such as a second or larger diameter section of pipe, or the ambient atmosphere, a reversion wave (a reversed or mirrored wave) is reflected back toward the exhaust valve without significant loss of velocity.

N/A cars utilize exhaust velocity (not backpressure) in the collector to aid in scavenging other cylinders during the blowdown process. It just so happens that to get the appropriate velocity, you have to squeeze down the diameter of the discharge of the collector (aka the exhaust), which also induces backpressure. The backpressure is an undesirable byproduct of the desire to have a certain degree of exhaust velocity. Go too big, and you lose velocity and its associated beneficial scavenging effect. Too small and the backpressure skyrockets, more than offsetting any gain made by scavenging. There is a happy medium here.
   
 For turbo cars, you throw all that out the window. You want the exhaust velocity to be high upstream of the turbine (i.e. in the header). You'll notice that primaries of turbo headers are smaller diameter than those of an n/a car of two-thirds the horsepower. The idea is to get the exhaust velocity up quickly, to get the turbo spooling as early as possible. Here, getting the boost up early is a much more effective way to torque than playing with tuned primary lengths and scavenging. The scavenging effects are small compared to what you'd get if you just got boost sooner instead. You have a turbo; you want boost.

This is the idea for running street, in your case just big pipes for high flow, the spin up time isn't important.

Downstream of the turbine, the turbo exhaust, you want the least backpressure possible. No ifs, ands, or buts. Stick a Hoover on the tailpipe if you can. The general rule of "larger is better" (to the point of diminishing returns) of turbo exhausts is valid. Here, the idea is to minimize the pressure downstream of the turbine in order to make the most effective use of the pressure that is being generated upstream of the turbine. Remember, a turbine operates via a pressure ratio. For a given turbine inlet pressure, you will get the highest pressure ratio across the turbine when you have the lowest possible discharge pressure. This means the turbine is able to do the most amount of work possible (i.e. drive the compressor and make boost) with the available inlet pressure. Shorter is better.

There is going to be scavenging at the collector, but I doubt any advantage would be statistically noticeable at the extreme boost you are running.


Two things caught my eye.  Many modern turbine housings are "split" in an attempt to get more energy out of the gases by alternating pulses.  On the "split" area, I have erosion happening as the gases want over to the "other side" snail where the lower pressure is.  Odd.  Then when I put on a drive pressure gauge, the pressure pulses are very powerful it seems, and I have to muffle the pulses to get any kind of reading.  Any time you have a difference in pressure, there is an opportunity to make some power out of it.  Even though it's difference of two high pressures, there is still wasted energy there.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 08:38:06 PM by McRat »

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 02:06:07 PM »
Quote
there is still wasted energy there.

I've seen your truck run and there is NO wasted energy there!  :cheers:

OK, I see your point. To arrive at the correct theoretical values is beyond an online calculator. CFD software will get you closer, if you can plug in all the variables correctly.

Empirically you know where you are heading, but without fabricating several sets of headers and dyno testing how will you know if you are gaining ground?

It seems to me that it could be a huge investment for a small return. I'm not dinging small returns, it just has to make economic sense.

Don't we all wish we had F1 budgets for LSR!

Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline rebelce

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Re: Speed of sound calculator?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2009, 12:25:56 PM »
I wonder what the turbine wheel does to the pulse? Can't be good.