Author Topic: FWD Streamliner differentials  (Read 24784 times)

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Offline Richard Thomason

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2009, 01:28:44 PM »
These are some things we learned the hard way about front wheel drive and streamliners. One thing that is imperative first and foremost is to have an over running clutch or sprag on the drive train so that you absolutely positively cannot ever come down on compression (assume worst case scenario of breaking one axle or cv joint). Also, we have torn up quite a few u-joints (even the good billet ones) so we only use CV joints now. We use a Casales unit like is used on drag boats. The next item is to run independent front suspension. That will cure a great amount of handling problems. Make sure the tire runout is exactly the same on both driven wheels. Pay close attention to the offset of the wheels so that the contact patch is exactly in the center of the king pin inclination point. We run a Halibrand quick change with our own 2:1 ring and pinion. Depending on speed, we run as low as a 1.55/1 final drive ration. We also run a spool. As far as testing you don't have to be going very fast to be able to tell if the car is right. It should be stable under acceleration, deceleration and most telling of all is at a steady speed. Sixty mph will actually tell you all you need to know. I think we kind of pioneered fast front wheel drive cars that actually handle. Jim Fueling came over to look at our set up and the next year he had one exactly like ours. Good luck to you on your endeaver.

Offline panic

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2009, 07:17:00 PM »
This problem looks easier to deal with using automatic transmission(s). Rather than try to de-clutch to avoid load reversal damage (super-human reaction time and reflexes, or very strong accumulators/cylinders) a solenoid dump valve simply drops the line pressure clamping the clutches, bands, blah by venting it back to the pan, and you have free-wheel - the pump still turns and lubricates/cools gears etc.
Could be manual driver's control, brake light switch, throttle switch, etc.

Offline SPARKY

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2009, 07:27:18 PM »
What R T is refering to about the kingpin inclination angle and tire patch is known as SCRUB RADIUS---that is what was causing the RATICAL to hunt so bad at speed I had 3.5" instead of 0"

---I cant imagine how bad it would be on a FWD not at ZERO scrub radius.
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2009, 10:51:59 PM »
I would suggest going to Formsprag on the web and look at their sprag clutches, I am sure that they have one that will work for almost any motor you are considering and they will automatically disengage your drive from the front wheels as soon as the engine rpm is less than the input pinion speed. i.e. the motor has blowed up! A little thinking and you could probably make it fit on the input shaft to the diff. This would completely eliminate any human input to de-couple the engine in case of failure.

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Offline Freud

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2009, 11:35:03 PM »
On the Treit streamliner build I have some questions to ask BEFORE I post his new front drive-steering system.

Having read thru this post, I better be prepared for I am certain that I will be quizzed.

I'll study before I take the test questions.

FREUD


« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 02:40:54 AM by Freud »
Since '63

Offline Tom Simon

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2009, 02:49:12 PM »
One of my "someday" things to do is to try making a box using over the over the counter quick change gears with an input and output both pointed in the same direction.  It would go in front of one of "Sparky's" GM low gear ratio differentials.  The motor would be in the car just behind the front diff with the aft end pointing forward with a drive line under the front differential (to the side of the pumpkin) to the quick change box's input shaft.  The output from the quick change would go via a drive-shaft to the differential that has it's input facing forward.  Very similar to a V drive setup.  Except for making the box this would use low cost items.  I think the box could be made fairly simply using two stock quick change input shafts with their bearings and such from a current quick change.  That way stock gears could be used and the only machining would be a box to hold the gears/seals and a stock quick change rear cover.

hey Sum, I had a close look at a streamliner that was real close to what you are describing...

It was FWD streamliner, motor behind the diff (aft end pointed forward), drive line passing under the diff and went into a custom-made gearbox (with interchangable gears.. think; older lathe feed gearbox). That custom gearbox was mated to the front of a TH400 GM slushbox (bellhousing and converter facing forward, and the whole gearbox-transmission ans conveter assy inside the nose, ahead of the diff).  The trans was fitted with a short tailshaft, and short driveshaft that went into a Winters forward facing diff. I don't think the Winters diff had QC gears, but it's been 12 years or more. I think the custom gearbox had commonly available QC gears in it, to facilitate gearing changes by simply pulling off the sheetmetal nose and the gearbox cover. Like your idea, it was a well thought out solution, I thought.

The drivetrain all worked, but the rest of the car had handling issues and sadly was destroyed in early testing. I've got one picture of the car I'll try to post

Offline John Burk

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2009, 10:09:05 PM »
Mine (nearly completed) has the engine and trans ahead of the inverted dropout 12 bolt . The driveshaft runs under the spool , next to the ring gear and back to a Casale V-drive with a Casale overrunning clutch on the output and foreword to the pinion . Lots of traction and directional stability and a few chalanges .

My friend has some photos of it on his site:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motorsportsinnovations.com%2Fbonneville.htm&ei=yZH7SenGL5qWMcXjoMQE&rct=j&q=burk+streamliner&usg=AFQjCNEDKndewf_N6l5UcvwvJQTWyk657g

Offline interested bystander

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2009, 10:23:18 PM »


   WOW!

  Mr Burk, that is some awesomely fine bit of work, and a gutsy, creative approach to a streamliner!

  I feel like Simon Cowell must have felt when that broad with the bushy eyebrows knocked everybody dead.

  AWESTRUCK!. . . and from NJ, too! Not exactly a Landspeed haven.
5 mph in pit area (clothed)

Offline maguromic

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2009, 10:35:14 PM »
John, Very nice work!!! When do you plan on running the car?  I want to be there.  :cheers:
“If you haven’t seen the future, you are not going fast enough”

Offline John Burk

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2009, 11:17:02 PM »
 When do you plan on running the car?  I want to be there. 

Shooting for Speedweek but lots of details to finish .

Offline JimL

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2009, 01:30:35 AM »
If a fellow had wheels back space set up to use spacers at 0 scrub, he could have the option of moving the scrub inboard just a little.  FWD drag cars do that, to handle the pitch across when one wheel slips a little, or when an axle let's go, running a spool.  I.E.:  If the right side is pulling better then the left, the inset scrub radius helps the driver hold the wheel to the right a little (very small), to prevent the front end from "climbing over the left", so to speak.  I'm told it's pretty natural when everything is set right....it responds quicker than driver reaction can.

You could use whatever spacing makes the car steerable as the car is worked up to speed (it'll be pretty close to 0, but thin shims are available).  I honestly don't know what it'd do on super high HP/speed stuff.... I don't think the front drivers ever got past 1000-1500 HP and low 200mph range (Chevy Cobalt and Chris Rado's Scion TC for example).

Wouldn't be hard to do, and it'd give the option of dialing in the steering without rebuilding stuff.


Offline SPARKY

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2009, 01:38:02 AM »
John, WOW   I look forward to seeing your car run--- :cheers:
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 08:39:29 AM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline SPARKY

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2009, 10:15:57 AM »
JimL,  could you point me in the right direction to study more about neg. scrub radius and FWD?  I think I have fiqured out a way to mix and match parts and get away from the 4X4 outer snouts like John's frt axel has and the Golden Rod as well as Marlo's. It could have a way to space without using spacers behind wheels.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 02:23:55 PM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline STUTZ

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2009, 11:57:39 AM »
This is a link to a very different setup.


www.cardomain.com/ride/2617265

Offline Richard Thomason

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Re: FWD Streamliner differentials
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2009, 10:01:17 PM »
1200 HP, several passes above 340, nice handling, sweet.