Author Topic: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011  (Read 741257 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Nortonist 592

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1510
    • http://www.artfv.com/design/fashion/
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #480 on: September 10, 2010, 11:40:27 PM »
do you think my bum looks big in them leathers ?

...ha ha



Lars.  Just fit a (really) wider rear tire and you'll be fine. : - )


Bob is a stand up guy.  LSR is the better for him being involved.
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

Offline octane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Nimbus 750 APS-VBF
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #481 on: September 10, 2010, 11:48:35 PM »
Got the bike back into the box






...spend time cleaning the gas-tank, oil-tank and carb as they went into my luggage





..as it enabled me to avoid having to ship the bike as "dangerous goods"
which is much more expensive.

Spend a LOT of time cleaning the rental van inside out.
It took    F  O  R  E  V  E  R    !

Spend a couple of days after delivering the bike in SLC
going to the Miller Race track motorcycle 'Vintage GP'
and taking a trip to Park City in the mountains

then back to Copenhagen




WHAT A FANTASTIC TRIP from dream





..to reality







Let me take this opportunity to send the biggest heartfelt Thank You possible to Moen at
INDIAN PARTS EUROPE
without whose invaluable help none of this would have been possible !

.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 12:01:08 AM by octane »
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add
but when there is nothing left to take away"

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline octane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Nimbus 750 APS-VBF
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #482 on: September 11, 2010, 12:51:54 AM »
A few thoughts on the head gasket problem?

Yes please. Thank you

Quote
It's at a very hot spot - the exhaust seat, and far away from the cooling influence of the intake tract.
Besides gasket integrity, there are 3 other possible contributors to the failure:
1. the cylinder's head-gasket surface is not flat at operating temperature due to local temp-induced warping.
2. the cylinder is not flat due to leverage from valve spring tension (the springs are far outboard of the bore center, and have mechanical advantage).
3. you may have borderline clamping force at the failure point.

1. I don't know of any fix except thermal barrier coat inside the port. Is the exterior fin surface bare? Painted? Coated? I have a feeling that the entire upper end could be held flat by a stiffening plate secured above the head on stand-offs using longer bolts. It doesn't have to be really thick if it has a "dorsal fin" extended across the center span (it's also another heat convection dump, and air scoop).
2. I'm trying to make a "rev kit" fixture for my SV to load some spring tension against the crankcase rather than the cylinders. It can be a substantial steel plate under the cylinder base, extending to the right with "eyeglass" holes to permit the valve covers to work around it (lucky me - I need stroker plates anyway). If it can't be stiff enough, it can be braced to an extended top motor mount (vertical post).
3. The bolt hole looks like it perforates the cylinder? If you spot-face the bottom, you can use a fine-thread bolt and a big flanged washer on the bottom and a nut on top for more compression. You can also add the next smaller size bolts (if 3/8-16 NC, use 5/16-18 NC or 8.0mm-1.25mm, etc.) in-between the existing adjacent to the failure point.


Brilliant Lars, you did it!
Thanks Chris.

Quote
Panic, I like your idea of adding more bolts, I'm seriously thinking of making a pair of heads for my own Indian (I was about to contact Moen at IPU to scrounge a scrap head to use as a pattern). The heads on my motor are the only part I'm not happy with, but mostly because loads of fins are bent or broken.

Lars
It is super to see you make it here and participate.
Not a motorbike guy, but have loved watching your build and finally running such a unique machine.


The design and materials of the cylinder head gasket that failed is NOT the most robust for any engine, particularly a boosted motor.
If you would like, send me a PM and I can offer opinions/suggestions.
Rick@RBMotorsports.com

Again Congratulations for your successful trip.  You have a lot to be proud of.

Thanks for your offer and for your kind words Rick.
I will contact you
but also; please post any advise here

If you have room in the cylinder casting, you can just up-grade all the bolt sizes (not to mention most of the threads aren't too fresh...). To remove minimal metal, you want a pitch very close to the original: if 3/8-16 NC (a std. thread), it becomes 7/16-16 NS, which isn't std. but it's common - use H-D 45 or UL bolts. If already 7/16-14, the usual fix is 1/2-13 but 12mm × 1.75mm looks a bit better  (removes less ID, and pitch is only .5 away).
I'd make the head thicker everywhere, taller fins, longer perch distance to the bolt surface. Leave a generous seating surface for 3/16" or more thick washers at the bolt holes. Extra mass slows down overheating slightly. Put the plug closer to the exhaust valve. I'd try to figure out how much pop-up I need before figuring casting thickness, you want at least .200" thick over the dome, plus the quench distance.



OK:
The gaskets.
All in all I'm quite happy with my bike considering my limited economical and mental resources.
In particular I'm very glad that it felt safe and "tight" to ride, and that the whole blower set up ( the big unknown )
seamed to work pretty fine.
Obviously there's a lot of things that I want to improve and modify,
the head gaskets being the first thing that comes to mind.

I'm surely not the first one to run into this problem
and this is not something I have dealt with before
so all advise is highly appreciated !

Here's what happened:



Close up front gasket



and rear gasket




Here's some of the suggestions folks have presented:

..no gasket. Period.

..no gasket. Paint a "gasket" with aluminum-paint
( let it sit in the can for a while. Use the thick stuff at the bottom of the can )

..form a thin strand of stainless steel wire and use as "gasket"

..make a groove in the top of the cylinder. Lay a thin 'rod' of copper,
(that stands proud a few thous of the grove) in the groove.
I don't think there's room for that on mine, as the distance between
the bolt-holes and the cylinder-bore is so small.
BTW: This seams to be a weak point , gasket-wise, on my engine judging from the above photos.

..use copper gaskets.
I'm not sure such a thing is available for my bike.
but it shouldn't be hard to fabricate.

I have some for my BSA ...



...and I take it that I should use
the 'solid' type, not the one with the white stuff in between two thin
pieces of copper



...which reminds me that someone mentioned that the type of gasket I was running
was problematic as they served as a heat-insulating layer between cylinder and top,
so the two pieces were moving ( expanding ) in different manners
and thereby "rubbing" the gasket, and weaken it.


Panic:
I'll come back to your informative detailed comments later today
but just for now: ( and this goes for Chris/desperate too):
I'm not sure how to read it, but the rules states that:
for Vintage Class one shall
"...retain the O.E.M. heads......originally installed at the time of factory production.."

I'll have to find out exactly how this should be understood
....if, and how much, one can 'modify' the heads.
One thing tell me that there's NOT a lot one can do as the rule also states
"...exact reproductions may be legal in vintage class if they offer no competive advantage..."

Anyone knows ?



« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 01:02:38 AM by octane »
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add
but when there is nothing left to take away"

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline octane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Nimbus 750 APS-VBF
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #483 on: September 11, 2010, 01:03:17 AM »
do you think my bum looks big in them leathers ?

...ha ha



Lars.  Just fit a (really) wider rear tire and you'll be fine. : - )


LOL !!!
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add
but when there is nothing left to take away"

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
  • Ed Bennett, Speed Team Doo Kansas City fab shop.
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #484 on: September 11, 2010, 01:26:08 AM »
I find it interesting that the gaskets are showing failure at the bolt holes only. It would seem that if the head was flexing the gaskets would still be intact at the holes.

When you pulled the heads did you happen to notice if the head bolts were lose in the area of the gasket damage? I ask because I've seen bolts or studs stretch, threads pull out when the engine was hot, and other failures like that.

If you haven't removed the front head yet, it may be a good idea to put a torque wrench on them and make sure that they're still the same torque that you set them to. If they are loosening then you need to figure out why. If that's the problem it may be as simple as needing new hardware, or repairing the threads in the the cylinders.

Another thought is that you may just have too much cylinder pressure for the engine to handle. Possibly finding a way to control your boost to limit cylinder pressure may be in order? This was suggested to me by another racer on the salt as the possible cause of your problems.

You do have to run stock heads in Vintage class, or exact reproductions. There is no rule saying that you couldn't install a "girdle" on top of the heads along with higher strength fasteners to help keep the heads down under high cylinder pressures. Just a thought.
Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline generatorshovel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 412
    • http://www.dlra.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=556
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #485 on: September 11, 2010, 01:43:45 AM »
Lars,I would go copper.

The pic shows the copper head gasket I made for the little single, not that I had a choice, as NOTHING is available for a one off home made type of engine like this.
I even had trouble finding copper sheet suppliers and ended up buying a piece of a boiler storage tank from a scrap metal supplier, made a template,and a hole saw, clamped the copper between 2 pieces of plywood and went to work,,finished it with a file, annealed it, and applied copper base gasket paint.
No leakage problems, yet, after 2 years and several re-anneal / paint  & re-fits.
Tiny
Tiny (in OZ)
I would prefer to make horsepower, rather than buy, or hya it, regardless of the difficulties involved , as it would then be MINE

Offline octane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Nimbus 750 APS-VBF
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #486 on: September 11, 2010, 03:05:35 AM »
I find it interesting that the gaskets are showing failure at the bolt holes only. It would seem that if the head was flexing the gaskets would still be intact at the holes.

When you pulled the heads did you happen to notice if the head bolts were lose in the area of the gasket damage? I ask because I've seen bolts or studs stretch, threads pull out when the engine was hot, and other failures like that.
Yep: the guy who removed the head the first time around ( one of the Vincent Vikings ) mentioned
that one ( as I recall it ) was loose'ish

Quote
If you haven't removed the front head yet, it may be a good idea to put a torque wrench on them and make sure that they're still the same torque that you set them to.
Will do.
Haven't removed the front head. Bike haven't arrived yet.

Quote
If they are loosening then you need to figure out why. If that's the problem it may be as simple as needing new hardware, or repairing the threads in the the cylinders.
Could be, but this is how it was set up, as we were concerned about the extra
challenge for the bolts when blowing this engine :

Threads checked and cleaned up




New bolts




..and bolt-attachment 'surface' "faced" ( it that the English term ?)




and ( unrelated to this problem ) new cylinder base studs







Quote
Another thought is that you may just have too much cylinder pressure for the engine to handle.
Yep, that may very well be the case

 
Quote
Possibly finding a way to control your boost to limit cylinder pressure may be in order?
Yep, could be that I'm simply running too much boost.

Quote
You do have to run stock heads in Vintage class, or exact reproductions. There is no rule saying that you couldn't install a "girdle" on top of the heads along with higher strength fasteners to help keep the heads down under high cylinder pressures. Just a thought.
...and a relevant one at that

DOOH:
 it suddenly occurs to me that when I bought the engine
it DID have copper gaskets.
I've got them somewhere. I NEVER throw anything out.





Lars,I would go copper.

The pic shows the copper head gasket I made for the little single, not that I had a choice, as NOTHING is available for a one off home made type of engine like this.
I even had trouble finding copper sheet suppliers and ended up buying a piece of a boiler storage tank from a scrap metal supplier, made a template,and a hole saw, clamped the copper between 2 pieces of plywood and went to work,,finished it with a file, annealed it..
Darn nifty !



 
Quote
and applied copper base gasket paint.

Never heard of that. Had to look it up.
Is this it?:
  Copper Spray
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 03:11:05 AM by octane »
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add
but when there is nothing left to take away"

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline generatorshovel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 412
    • http://www.dlra.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=556
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #487 on: September 11, 2010, 03:19:20 AM »
Quote
and applied copper base gasket paint.

Never heard of that. Had to look it up.
Is this it?:
  Copper Spray
Yep, that's the one.
I even used it on a "never use again" original honda head gasket we used on a young lad's "roughie" this year, and it held up to 13.5 C/R WOT on methanol , and gave the 17 y/o his 2nd record (his 1st was MINE !)
Tiny
Tiny (in OZ)
I would prefer to make horsepower, rather than buy, or hya it, regardless of the difficulties involved , as it would then be MINE

Offline ironwigwam

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #488 on: September 11, 2010, 06:43:02 AM »
Probably need to machine the heads and cylinders flat while bolted to a fixture plate and then spend time lapping the gaskets surfaces to a mirror finish to be flat with the most contact possible. I understand I have no room to talk as I have yet to establish a timing slip but I do remember my father preaching these words when I was younger.
   I will shortly be in the sweat lodge for a month of project work,
    Rocky

Offline bak189

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 761
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #489 on: September 11, 2010, 12:35:16 PM »
Lars, you may just try it without any type of gasket......make sure everything is flat....no gasket has worked just great on the "old" roadracing bikes, like the Norton Manx...........................................
 
Question authority.....always

Offline panic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 845
    • My tech papers
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #490 on: September 11, 2010, 02:45:47 PM »
..
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 10:07:57 AM by panic »

Offline desotoman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2815
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #491 on: September 11, 2010, 03:12:27 PM »
Lars,

Maybe I missed it, but how much boost are you running, and what is your static compression?

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline panic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 845
    • My tech papers
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #492 on: September 11, 2010, 03:13:48 PM »
..
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 10:08:16 AM by panic »

Offline saltwheels262

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1085
  • LTA 7/2013
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #493 on: September 12, 2010, 01:42:05 PM »
lars,

great meeting you at the bub.

hope that we can get to '11 bub.

franey
bub '07 - 140.293 a/pg   120" crate street mill  
bub '10 - 158.100  sweetooth gear
lta  7/11 -163.389  7/17/11; 3 run avg.-162.450
ohio -    - 185.076 w/#684      
lta 8/14  - 169.xxx. w/sw2           
'16 -- 0 runs ; 0 events

" it's not as easy as it looks. "
                            - franey  8/2007

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5503
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #494 on: September 12, 2010, 07:12:36 PM »
Lars, it is nice to see that you are safe and sound and back home.  Commercial roofers use sheet copper.  I get my copper from a roofer supplier.  Type "copper flashing" into an internet search engine to find suppliers.  I always anneal any copper gasket before use.  I heat it red or orange hot and drop it into the toilet.