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Author Topic: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011  (Read 447963 times)
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octane
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« Reply #600 on: January 21, 2011, 07:31:08 AM »

Maybe salt got in there?Huh??.....If you have a blower a VERY good aircleaner is required
Yes Sir, I do have a nice rather oversized KN filter.


Was that a standard vinyl oil seal in the housing?
   Rocky
Have no idea what is the ( now mal-functional ) present blower.
Won't find out till I disassemble it.
The pic of the seal above , is from the first blower that I never used.


Test to compare the broken blower to the new one I'll install:
It's NOT a pretty sound coming from the broken one

VIDEO


.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 07:32:45 AM by octane » Logged

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« Reply #601 on: January 22, 2011, 05:30:58 AM »

Took the darn thing apart:



This blower is NOT in a good shape.
Found the thing that had ripped up the surface of the lobes:



...a piece of what appears to be aluminum,
kind of 'welded' into the surface (!)


Then this:
a 'crack-line' in the body





Urgh!

Rotating the lobes it's obvious ( I think ) that their relative
position as altered ( anti-clockwise on the pic ), so that they interfere,
more or less at the area below what is highlighted by the white marker



It's a bit of a mystery. My friend Georges has a theory that when some foreign
object got in there it was 'locked' between the lobes,
and as the gear-wheels are not "key'ed" to the shafts,
one gear-wheel slipped on the lobe-shaft ---> changing the relative position of the lobes.

It's the best explanation I've heard so far.


BTW the oil-leak from the gear-housing explains another worrying mystery;
the oil on the top of the pistons and on the cylinderhead





« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 05:32:45 AM by octane » Logged

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
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« Reply #602 on: January 22, 2011, 04:46:13 PM »

Lars,

    Maybe you could pin the rotors to the shafts.  I recall that being done to the GMC 4-71/6-71 family of blowers to preclude what seemed to happen to your blower, i.e. the rotors slipping on the shaft & then binding. 

HTH

roy
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« Reply #603 on: January 23, 2011, 11:51:42 AM »

Hi Lars,

Split body, must have been quite an object to do the job... I have another supercharger off a twin cylinders Hanomag 2 stroke diesel engine, it's scratted and battered to death but no split, bits normally imbed themselves in the alloy, don't split it??

I had a better look inside my AMR500 today... I think I will get rid of the oil bath for the gears and lube them from a Tee and small jet off the oil return line to the oil tank and drain it back to the engine, don't fancy having about 50cc of oil sloshing in there!!!

And I now see what you meant by AMR's non standard ball bearings!!! Gawd, where did they get the idea???

Patrick
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« Reply #604 on: January 25, 2011, 05:20:07 PM »


Wow! It took me a couple of days to get enough time to read the whole thread!

Amazing craftsmanship, and a wonderful story!

Kudos! cheers
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« Reply #605 on: February 06, 2011, 01:28:27 PM »

OK so I was wrong:

Finally got the blower totally disassembled ( gears , bearings etc. ) today.
Lots of heat to get the gears lose



..well; loo and behold:
In spite of looking exactly like the first blower on the outside, this is quite different



..as the gears ARE keyed to the shafts !!! ( unlike the first one that had NO keys )

and
there are NO oil-seals behind the bearings
and
the bearings are completely different, being a double-row ball bearing type
with a metal seal/shield towards the blower-body
( and the size: diameter 15mm / outside diam. 35mm / width 23mm (!))
is NOT something I can find at my usual bearing-pusher SIMPLY BEARINGS
and
the bearing on the pulley side are different as well
being in size that is actually available ( unlike the ones on the first blower)
( The one on the pulley-shaft was shot, maybe from lack of lubrication (?) )



This means that the changed position between the rotors can only
be due to the rotor(s) having moved in relation to the shaft(s).
The rotors are made of aluminum ( covered with PTFE/"Teflon")
so I take it they are heat-shrink'ed ( is that the term ?) on to the shafts (?).

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


Lars,

    Maybe you could pin the rotors to the shafts.  I recall that being done to the GMC 4-71/6-71 family of blowers to preclude what seemed to happen to your blower, i.e. the rotors slipping on the shaft & then binding.  

HTH

roy
Thanks Roy.
Before I totally disassembled the darn thing I would have pointed out that
the problem was the gears were sliding on the shafts, but obviously I was wrong
so what you say here makes perfect sense.

Hi Lars,

Split body, must have been quite an object to do the job... I have another supercharger off a twin cylinders Hanomag 2 stroke diesel engine, it's scratted and battered to death but no split, bits normally imbed themselves in the alloy, don't split it??


Patrick. you've got a point, and I think you're right;
It probably wasn't a foreign object .....but  ( I must shamefully admit )
the rather spectacular back-fires I experienced before the engine was set-up properly.
We're talking "fire-spitting-through-the-pop-up-valve" BIG-BANG back-fires.
I must ( even more shamefully ) admit that at one point I was suspecting that
the spring on the pop-up valve was too weak, so I added an extra one from
the auto-parts store in Wendover

The back fire theory would somehow explain the altered position of rotors, the splitting of the body and
probably the oil inside the intake as well.

Goodness; I wonder when this happened....maybe I've been riding all along with it
in this condition ?!??

I'm just not too smart.
You live, you make mistakes, you learn.
Gotta get the other blower attached and enjoy how it will now go a LOT faster.




Yeah, right.



Almost finished working on the heads, filing and sanding and polishing
around the repair.






Wow! It took me a couple of days to get enough time to read the whole thread!

Amazing craftsmanship, and a wonderful story!

Kudos! cheers

Well, THANKS a lot, Flattie !
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 02:10:03 PM by octane » Logged

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« Reply #606 on: February 06, 2011, 02:58:58 PM »


( and the size: diameter 15mm / outside diam. 35mm / width 23mm (!))
is NOT something I can find at my usual bearing-pusher SIMPLY BEARINGS
and


Lars
why don't you use a pair of 6202 bearings  (15 35 11) side by side
G
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« Reply #607 on: February 06, 2011, 03:58:34 PM »

Great and informative pictures Lars! Much appreciated! Lots of thoughts for the mind. Are there any blower version identification numbers or other differences between the keyed and non keyed blower?
The rotors sideshift shows clearly there is tremendous forces in a backfire, I would like to avoid that problem. It seems to me that the blower could be saved if multiple blow-out valves was used or made as large as a barn door.
I'd bet a case of Carlsbergs those bearings are angular contact bearings in order to control side play, much like modern wheel bearings, so ordinary 6202 bearings are not an option, it might be possible to pair up 2 single ang.cont.brg. but problem is dual bearings needs to be preloaded and there is no positive lock for the outer race.
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« Reply #608 on: February 06, 2011, 04:59:02 PM »

Are we going to lap the heads flat to the cylinders so they are brothers?
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charlie101
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« Reply #609 on: February 07, 2011, 12:54:27 AM »

Brothers...It has to be little brother and big brother then??? 37cuin versus 45?cuin grin Rocky, post some pictures and lets see what the big brother is doing to his motor...you sure got some tricky stuff too! and whats stewing in papa Moshers den??? Gee...this is going to be an exciting year 2011 when Fearsome Flathead Family is taking over the world (lets hope grandaddy Ron does approve!) cool 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:15:44 AM by charlie101 » Logged
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« Reply #610 on: February 07, 2011, 10:04:18 PM »

Lars, small diameter holes such as those for blow off valves typically do not provide effective relief for explosion induced pressure.  Only a small amount of gas can flow through the hole with the speed needed to reduce the spike in pressure.  In the past I have used "blow off" panels in the plenum chamber or air box with success.  In all cases they had large openings.
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octane
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« Reply #611 on: March 06, 2011, 06:16:11 AM »


Lars
why don't you use a pair of 6202 bearings  (15 35 11) side by side
G
Graham: I'm afraid that not a solution.
See below:

I'd bet a case of Carlsbergs those bearings are angular contact bearings
Yep

Quote
in order to control side play, much like modern wheel bearings, so ordinary 6202 bearings are not an option,
Yep

Quote
it might be possible to pair up 2 single ang.cont.brg. but problem is dual bearings needs to be preloaded and there is no positive lock for the outer race.
Nope

Quote
Great and informative pictures Lars! Much appreciated! Lots of thoughts for the mind. Are there any blower version identification numbers or other differences between the keyed and non keyed blower?
Nope

Quote
The rotors sideshift shows clearly there is tremendous forces in a backfire, I would like to avoid that problem. It seems to me that the blower could be saved if multiple blow-out valves was used or made as large as a barn door.
Yep

Are we going to lap the heads flat to the cylinders so they are brothers?
I'm not sure what exactly that means.
I'll see to it that they are FLAT...that's it.
If they are all FLAT, they are 'brothers', I'd say.
Then I'll go for a copper gasket

Lars, small diameter holes such as those for blow off valves typically do not provide effective relief for explosion induced pressure.  Only a small amount of gas can flow through the hole with the speed needed to reduce the spike in pressure.  In the past I have used "blow off" panels in the plenum chamber or air box with success.  In all cases they had large openings.
Bo; I'm listening



Just checking in here to say that I am still alive.
Not much progress on the Saltcracker.
Terribly terribly busy, fixing up my house to make it sale'able,
fixing up my workshop to make it live'able,
fixing up the Honda GL1000 that I've sold, but not delivered yet,
fixing up little things on the Honda CBX1000 that I'm putting up for sale
and working working working to make a living and to get together money for
the 2011 Bonneville trip.


Here's a little something with which I can polish my ego:
a while ago a guy on another forum told me that the editor of BikeExif,
the most visited on-line custom-motorcycle site in the world,
was looking for me.
I send him an email.....and loo and behold, the next day my bike
was featured:

CLICK


That's quite nice, I'd say.
Not because I want to brag about it, but mostly because the exposure
might help me find someone who'll maybe sponsor some of the expenses for the next trip.
I have no clue how to do that, but at least this time I can show that I actually
have achieved something and that it's out there
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 06:24:21 AM by octane » Logged

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« Reply #612 on: March 06, 2011, 07:16:34 AM »

Lars, you are a very busy guy. So I will patiently wait for a PM. You have a mighty full plate, good luck! How goes the movie business?
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« Reply #613 on: March 06, 2011, 09:22:37 AM »

Land Speed Larry, The term "brothers" refers to lapping the front head to the front cylinder using small 13mm circles using coarse, then fine and now to extra extra fine lapping compond. Now they are perfectly flat to each other  , no need for head gasket , no worries about leakage and more compression ratio for the thin air. When the gasket surfaces have a matching matted gray hue, then they will be dedicated brothers joined at the neck for what lays in front of them.
  Here is a starting point
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« Reply #614 on: March 06, 2011, 10:07:27 AM »

Hi Lars,
When I was racing a turbo nitrous funny bike, we used to use a burst plate on the plenum chamber.

It consisted of 2 round rings with approx a 2" bore. The first ring was welded to the plenum, and drilled and tapped with 6 M4 screws threads
The second ring had clearance for the M4 screws.
The actual burst panel material started off as a coke can, but we found that the panting of the engine induced stress failures of the ally disc. We then changed over to plastic milk carton which never failed mechanically, but would burst at around 40 PSI.
If you would like, I could possibly dig out an old photo if this would help

Neil
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