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Author Topic: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011  (Read 466511 times)
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ironwigwam
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« Reply #495 on: September 12, 2010, 06:30:06 PM »

Panic,
   You say "I'd try to get .035" to .040", no more no less."  for piston to head clearance. Where does a piston hit the head at 7000 RPM? I understand there is rod stretch and of course the roller bearings allow some flex and clearance as well, plus aluminum expands as it gets hot? So is .020 too close of clearance? and pistons would strike head at 7000 RPM?
  Just wondering what your thoughts are?
   Rocky
    1957 S/VG
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55chevr
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« Reply #496 on: September 12, 2010, 07:33:13 PM »

I always let copper head gaskets air cool to anneal ... quenching hardens hot metal ...
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AHG
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« Reply #497 on: September 12, 2010, 07:52:43 PM »

Hi Lars,
The following is a just suggestion,
but there surely should be a similar type of company nearer to you.
Also, make sure you measure for proper thickness to achieve piston dome clearance.  wink

See Ya
Drew

http://www.cut2sizemetals.com/copper/flat-sheet/ksh/?gclid=CNbC7sOTg6QCFQtN5wod2T5cGw




* Lars Mic..jpg (92 KB, 1471x1096 - viewed 316 times.)
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wolcottjl
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« Reply #498 on: September 12, 2010, 09:30:49 PM »

You can order custom made gaskets from Cometic. 
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Joel Wolcott
Moving to 2 wheels in 2010
panic
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« Reply #499 on: September 12, 2010, 09:48:53 PM »

..
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 09:06:16 AM by panic » Logged
Rex Schimmer
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« Reply #500 on: September 13, 2010, 01:03:20 AM »

55chevr,

"quenching hardens hot metal ." Only ferrous metals not copper.

Rex
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Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.
desperate
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« Reply #501 on: September 25, 2010, 07:50:22 AM »

Lars, I've always used solid copper head gaskets, both on my old BSA Super Rockets, and the Indian. I've had the Indian 20 years and only bought new gaskets when I had it overbored using +.020 Royal Enfield pistons 2.751" O/D. I got my solid copper gaskets from Robin Oakley at RTO Engineering 01303 893893 but maybe Moen has a supplier?


* Bores 003 (Small).jpg (49.44 KB, 640x480 - viewed 286 times.)
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« Reply #502 on: September 25, 2010, 01:38:18 PM »

CAD is a wonderfull thing send me a DXF file/drawing of the Gasket you require and I will Laser cut one or two for you.I have just done some parts for Gabriel and the Angelic Bulldog project,they came out good too.
 Oz
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octane
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« Reply #503 on: September 25, 2010, 02:55:04 PM »

Thank you 'wolcottjl' , Drew and all for your advise and thank you Oz for your generous offer !!!
and apologies to you all for my later reply:
I've been workingworkingworkingworkingworkingCauseINeedmoneymoneymoneymoneyCauseIambrokebrokebrokebrokebroke.

Yep; copper gaskets it will be for now, when I get the time to assemble the bike
that arrived last Thursday



Haven't had a single minute to work on it yet.

The plan is to assemble the bike 'as it was' + copper-gaskets and then put it on the dyno
to get a reference point, from witch to work and measure what-ever improvements can be made




.........
  Copper Spray
Yep, that's the one.
I even used it on a "never use again" original honda head gasket we used on a young lad's "roughie" this year, and it held up to 13.5 C/R WOT on methanol , and gave the 17 y/o his 2nd record (his 1st was MINE !)
Tiny
OK , thanks; I'll get some of that stuff

Probably need to machine the heads and cylinders flat while bolted to a fixture plate and then spend time lapping the gaskets surfaces to a mirror finish to be flat with the most contact possible. I understand I have no room to talk as I have yet to establish a timing slip but I do remember my father preaching these words when I was younger.
   I will shortly be in the sweat lodge for a month of project work,
    Rocky
Of cause you have room to talk Rocky, my man!
Glad you are working on the liner. I expect to see you at BUB 2012 !!!

Lars, you may just try it without any type of gasket......make sure everything is flat....no gasket has worked just great on the "old" roadracing bikes, like the Norton Manx...........................................
 
Mmmmm: maybe I'll give it a go, but first I'll try the copper gaskets


    I agree, if you're going to use a gasket copper is fine (used gaskets must be annealed to re-soften!).
H-D didn't use gaskets on race engines, just aluminum paint, but this requires a lapped surface (spend an evening at telly with the bits and some fine lapping compound + oil slurry).
     The caveat: it reduces your quench clearance by the gasket thickness, so (easy) add a base shim in the same thickness, or (much worse) re-cut the dome down (re-balance?), or (worst) relieve the head for the dome intrusion. I'd try to get .035" to .040", no more no less.

     On the vintage rule: the wording is (sorry, rant follows) poorly done. Assuming the last version I read is accurate and current: "Flat head and OHV heads, and two strokes must retain the O.E.M. heads and cases", the people who wrote it know nothing about either two strokes or flat heads.
     Taken literally, it is silent concerning (and therefore permits) both later model and aftermarket cylinders on both two strokes and flat heads - exactly the opposite of what they were attempting to preclude.
     The rule's true purpose is stock heads and cases on OHV, OHC (but replacement cylinders are OK), and the reverse on flatheads: stock cylinders and cases (but replacement heads are OK).
     If I'm right, you can do anything you want to the heads as long as they don't have valves in them.



Yeah; you could be right...dunno....I'll check it with tech

Lars,

Maybe I missed it, but how much boost are you running, and what is your static compression?

Tom G.

Tom; I'm running 6:1 comp. ratio.
Way back that was one of the first things I checked, as the information
just wasn't available (!)





...and I've calculated the boost to 6 psi / 0.4 bar
but I have a feeling that I've totally miscalculated.
My boost-gauge wasn't much help, as it just flipped all over the place.
I need something better than that 20$ p.o.s. instrument.


I see washers below the head bolts, but they don't look very substantial.
They should cover the entire spot-faced area of the casting (the ones pictured are smaller), and more if you have the time, and be as thick as possible, 1/4" is not overkill.
I haven't O-ringed a flathead, but if you're very careful you can trace a shallow groove inboard of the bolt holes, But as you said it's pretty close. A simple copper O-ring tightly surrounding each bolt may help, but has to be inletted into the gasket and should be relieved a bit in the cylinder and/or head.
Found this from James Gasket: "76095JC Head gasket. High quality solid copper gasket. Fits stock 741 engine. May require trimming for big-bore, big-valve 741 engines. Set of 2." http://indianpartseurope.com/james.html
Thanks Jeff ! I'll check the washers, the bolt size / pitch
and the other things you mentioned earlier.
Don't think I'll even attempt the groove-thing.

lars,

great meeting you at the bub.

hope that we can get to '11 bub.

franey

Great meeting you Franey !!!

Lars, it is nice to see that you are safe and sound and back home.  Commercial roofers use sheet copper.  I get my copper from a roofer supplier.  Type "copper flashing" into an internet search engine to find suppliers.  I always anneal any copper gasket before use.  I heat it red or orange hot and drop it into the toilet.
You don't flush... do you ?
.-)

Bo !...did I mention what an absolute pleasure it was meeting you and your adorable daughter Gretchen !?
"Woobly" / Bo was one of them good people who just seamed to pop up every time
help was needed !!!
....lending out tools, getting tools from other people and bring them over,
lending me his helmet, gloves, boots etc.
I'm telling you; you'll have a hard time finding person with a better 'vibe' than Bo.

THANKS !...I hope to meet you next year, and maybe have a little more time to talk with you !

One other person who I think I haven't given enough thanks
is Kurt and his Vincent Vikings team, who generously invited me to use their camp at BUB.
Thank you Kurt !!!

Kurt set a record and, as you know, tech had to check the cc after his record:
NOT a simple matter on a Vincent
...one , more or less, have to disassemble the entire bike to
remove the heads:







Thanks to Kurt I had a chance to sit on a genuine Vincent Black Lightning



HEYYYY: how often does such a thing happen ?
I feel privileged !

Another guy who needs to be mentioned:
Tom from Denmark you just happened to be there as a 'tourist'
and who also happened to be one of them good people who just turned up when help was needed.



Thanks Tom !


Lars, I've always used solid copper head gaskets, both on my old BSA Super Rockets, and the Indian. I've had the Indian 20 years and only bought new gaskets when I had it overbored using +.020 Royal Enfield pistons 2.751" O/D. I got my solid copper gaskets from Robin Oakley at RTO Engineering 01303 893893 but maybe Moen has a supplier?
OK Chris !
Yep: Moen at Indian Parts Europe have a supplier !


One thing I did have time to do right after I got home was to take a few close ups of
the gaskets.
I do find it weird that apparently the edges of the gaskets have melted (!),
in SEVERAL places, even though in some of those places the gasket isn't actually broken .
I don't know much about these things, but could it be that the edges of the gasket
has acted as pre-detonating 'hot spots' Huh
It IS weird isn't it...or Huh












...


Afterthought / reflections on a fantastic journey:

I think there is some absolutely beautiful 'poetic justice' in the fact that I did not set a record.
Somewhere in the back of my mind,( I'm embarrassed to admit ),
there was this thought that it would be rather easy to set a record, as I was
going for a 'soft' record.

Ha, ha.....welcome to Bonneville.

"...the human creature is designed for striving; Buddha, Spinoza and Schopenhauer,
among many others, agree.
Striving implies effort applied over time, with obstacles, difficulty and the possibility, even likelihood
of failure.
If we could feel good without effort we would no longer feel good.
The difficulty is crucial. Everything worthwhile has to be earned
..."
Michael Foley
in the book "The Age of Absurdity. Why modern life makes it hard to be happy".



Have a great weekend you all !



« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 03:00:26 PM by octane » Logged

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ironwigwam
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« Reply #504 on: September 25, 2010, 05:16:19 PM »

Thank you Lars for a beautiful insight and catch up
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« Reply #505 on: September 25, 2010, 06:03:04 PM »

..
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 09:06:46 AM by panic » Logged
saltwheels262
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« Reply #506 on: September 27, 2010, 06:05:00 PM »

 
there was this thought that it would be rather easy to set a record,




[/quote]

it's not as easy as it looks.


franey
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bub '07 - 140.293 a/pg   120" crate street mill  
bub '10 - 158.100  sweetooth gear
lta  7/11 -163.389  7/17/11; 3 run avg.-162.450
ohio -    - 185.076 w/#684      
lta 8/14  - 169.xxx. w/sw2           
'16 -- 0 runs ; 0 events -- made a 2 state change in ZIP codes

" it's not as easy as it looks. "
                            - franey  8/2007
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« Reply #507 on: September 27, 2010, 11:57:39 PM »

"easy to set a record"   Lars,  I didn't miss a meet at El Mirage between 1997 and 2007.  I didn't get a record until Sept. 2007.  I'm sure you will do it faster.  Bonneville sometimes tends to be underestimated.  Copper gaskets, 2011, and I'm sure you will go home with a record cert in your back pocket.  I'll be rootin' for you.
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« Reply #508 on: September 28, 2010, 01:18:47 AM »

Lars, it is always a good idea to know your static and dynamic compression ratios.  The static ratio is easy to figure.  The dynamic ratio is not so obvious.  This is the on-line calculator that I use to calculate dynamic compression ratio  www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm  The Indian community should have some experts who know the maximum static and dynamic compression ratios that you can use at sea level in a N/A engine without problems.  As a rule of thumb, and only if no better advice is available, it would not be a good idea to exceed that dynamic ratio at B'ville.  Note that there are several things that you can do to regulate the dynamic compression ratio besides controlling boost.

Keep in mind that I am no flathead or blower expert.  This is simply advice that can keep you out of trouble until you find an experienced tuner to help you with your engine.   
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« Reply #509 on: September 28, 2010, 03:12:24 AM »

"Panic" / Jeff:
Sorry but I'm not sure I understand your post.



Thank you Lars for a beautiful insight and catch up
Thank you Rocky


Quote
there was this thought that it would be rather easy to set a record,

it's not as easy as it looks.

franey
Nope: ....and if it was easy it wouldn't be real interesting, would it ?!

"easy to set a record"   Lars,  I didn't miss a meet at El Mirage between 1997 and 2007.  I didn't get a record until Sept. 2007.  I'm sure you will do it faster.  Bonneville sometimes tends to be underestimated.  Copper gaskets, 2011, and I'm sure you will go home with a record cert in your back pocket.  I'll be rootin' for you.
Thank you Bill !


Lars, it is always a good idea to know your static and dynamic compression ratios.  The static ratio is easy to figure.  The dynamic ratio is not so obvious.  This is the on-line calculator that I use to calculate dynamic compression ratio  www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm ...
Thanks Bo.
I'll look into that.
One thing: on the page it is mentioned that:
"...Of the variables, the most important is cam timing which has a dramatic effect on your "dynamic" as opposed to your static compression ratio. The more "overlap" your cams have, the lower your "actual" as opposed to your static compression ratio will be..."

Now that's interesting as I waaaay back checked the overlap. No-one in the Indian community could tell me.
Quoting from earlier in this thread:

...

No where could I find any info,
so did a real low-tech test. Sat up the cam'wheels' (cams are behind the wheels)
and held down the (non)-push-rods with rubber bands.



...turned the wheels and by holding each of two fingers
on top of the in- and out-let (non)-push-rods, respectively,
tried to feel the period where there was an actual overlap (both rods moved by cams)
Surprise: there was none...or it was negligible, to the point where my "test" couldn't detect it.

In all the literature on blowing (old) engines I've plowed through,
I'm told that 'low comp. ratio' and 'small overlap' is a good thing on a blown engine.

...


...in other words, this tells me that the minimal overlap gives me a high dynamic compression.



Quote
...The Indian community should have some experts who know the maximum static and dynamic compression ratios that you can use at sea level in a N/A engine without problems.
I'm not sure, but I hope so. Not that many people race and tune the 741 engine
but there's quite a strong 741 racing tradition in New Zealand, mainly because the have
a relatively great number of these machines, as they were dropped there in great numbers during WW II.

Quote
As a rule of thumb, and only if no better advice is available, it would not be a good idea to exceed that dynamic ratio at B'ville.  Note that there are several things that you can do to regulate the dynamic compression ratio besides controlling boost.

Keep in mind that I am no flathead or blower expert.  This is simply advice that can keep you out of trouble until you find an experienced tuner to help you with your engine.  
Thanks for your advise and info, Bo.
I did, and will again, seek advise, but the trouble is that my set-up has never been done before.


BTW:
I just received this video of my timed run from Lou Fischer
What a brilliant souvenir.

BUB run VIDEO


« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 03:18:48 AM by octane » Logged

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add
but when there is nothing left to take away"

Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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