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Author Topic: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011  (Read 203980 times)
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octane
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The INDIAN "Saltcracker" 650 A-VBF




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« Reply #135 on: June 15, 2009, 10:44:36 AM »

modify the resonance

I've been looking for a definitive answer to the question "does all buffer an storage volume have to be in the flow path?" for about 30 years, with no satisfactory answer so far...
So I guess I won't find it either within the next couple of months

.-)


.

So today we made a pop-up / blow-up / whatever...valve:








Of cause I have no clue if the spring pressure-range is right
but I'll test when the thing is up and running.







We don't have a mill, but just down the street there's a workshop with one.
They kind'a grew tired of us asking if we can use their mill,
so they just told us where they hide the key and let us use it as we please.
Good people !

« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 11:23:28 AM by octane » Logged

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octane
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The INDIAN "Saltcracker" 650 A-VBF




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« Reply #136 on: June 15, 2009, 11:56:06 AM »

...and last night I painted the frame.
Nothing fancy: just a humble rattle-can job in the backroom.







..today I'll do as little sign-writing and ad some red stripes.
Then clear-coat tonight.


Busy, busy, busy: have an apointment with the dyno-guy next Wednesday (!)

.
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« Reply #137 on: June 15, 2009, 12:05:05 PM »

modify the resonance

I've been looking for a definitive answer to the question "does all buffer an storage volume have to be in the flow path?" for about 30 years, with no satisfactory answer so far.
If the entry and exit tubes are both re-entrant, and in close proximity (separation distance < ID?), the surrounding plenum volume can be very large and irregularly shaped but hardly affect gas speed, and still damp pressure waves.

How to use a small line (as Rex suggests) and not get evil return waves?
This will take much R&D, but the obvious thought is a "trombone" in the small line leading to/from the boost bottle.
 
  Panic your wearing out my dictionary, but keeping us on our toes and learning new words grin
  Adding a boost bottle would be a fairly simple thing to do and test and adding the ''trombone'' would be a way of varying the test.
 My Yamaha was a 1981 and it was a simple change of the intake manifold which now had about a 1/2 in short tube leading to a small [ 1 1/2 by about 4 in ?] boost bottle] but the results were amazing.

         JL222



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Dynoroom
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« Reply #138 on: June 15, 2009, 03:45:17 PM »

octane,
#1 Fuel Tank size huh? Riding to the Line,then running a Pass{Long or Short Course?} Then the Long ride back to the Pit's or Hopefully Impound area? cool Is a Long Way embarassed! I know the hard way. Good Luck and Go FASTER!
SEE YA ON THE SALT,
Kaz................

Octane, the above is true only at Bub?? as you can not ride your bike at an SCTA event anywhere but the race track.
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Rex Schimmer
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« Reply #139 on: June 16, 2009, 09:45:31 AM »

Octane,
Looking at your pop off valve do you have some sort of O ring seal on the bottom of the pop off to make a seal? Or are you depending on strictly metal to metal seal? Either way you probably need to relieve the area that mates to the part with the two kidney shaped ports. The reason being is that if you are sealing by the large metal to metal surface of the pop off part over the section that has the kidney ports the opening pressure will be pretty much based upon the area of the kidney ports but the re-seating pressure will be based upon the area of the complete pop off, this could cause some instability with the pop off valve. If you relieve the botto of the pop off out to its edge then the opening and closing pressure will be pretty close.

Rex

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octane
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The INDIAN "Saltcracker" 650 A-VBF




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« Reply #140 on: June 17, 2009, 08:22:42 AM »

Thanks Rex.
It does indeed have a sealing by means of a rubber-seal in between the parts





I've never done such a thing before so I just sort'a modelled it after what I have on my Honda








...and by looking at a few pics I found, like this




I do not quite understand what you're saying about 're-sealing'.

The pop-up isn't really a 'function'-part , but a safety-devise that
only comes into play if (heaven forbid) some really nasty thing happens,
like stuck valves or a backfire...that will stop the bike fastlike.
I'm not sure why I should be concerned about 're-sealing' / 'instability'.


..or maybe I'm getting you wrong, which I am sure is not because of your explanation,
but because of my far from perfect understanding of the English language.
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« Reply #141 on: June 17, 2009, 10:50:59 AM »

Octane,
Looking at the more detailed pictures of your valve the rubber seal around the outer diameter of the poppet means that any surge in manifold pressure will push against the complete area of the poppet less the area of the seal diameter. This is good as it will make the valve responsive to any manifold "event" that could cause a problem. I understand what you mean about it being really a safety device and a one time only function.

Looking at the valve you did for your Honda, did it ever have occasion to function? An additional thing that you want to look at is the length of the hole that the center shaft goes thru vs. the diameter. On the valve for the Indian it looks like the length is probably 2-3 times the diameter of the bolt, which is good, whereas on the Honda valve the ratio is probably less than 1:1. This can cause the poppet to lock onto the shaft (bolt) and be sticky. Every try to slide a tight fitting washer over a smooth shaft? you have to keep the washer exactly square with the shaft or it will stick. Kind of like the old Volkswagen jacks. (really dating myself there!)

Any how I am just "Kibittizing" as usual. Again, looking forward to seeing you at the BUB.

Rex
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The INDIAN "Saltcracker" 650 A-VBF




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« Reply #142 on: June 18, 2009, 08:09:05 AM »

Octane...
Name's Lars

.-)


Quote
Any how I am just "Kibittizing" as usual.
No, Rex; your comments and advise are highly appreciated !



New cylinder studs are in:




'Flattened' the heads back




Pistons are in. Cylinders are on. No pictures; lowering the cylinders down over 4 rings, all by yourself,
is a...erh...challenge in itself, and doesn't leave a free hand to take photos.
( Aaaaand I forgot about it, when after spending half an hour with one particularly
un-coorperative cylinder/rings...I noticed I had forgot to put on the cylinder-base-gasket first....GRRR!)



Checked if there were space for the valves (upwards movement. It's a sidevalver, remember) by putting this gum on the valves,
assembling the top and turn the engine:




...and checked for clearance around the new bigger exhaust valves:



...which, as you can see, there was,


except on the other cylinder/head there wasn't,
so this here idjiout squashed the head, turning the engine.



...but it really didn't matter much, as I had to re-work the head anyway,
and BTW these heads are made of marshmellowuminum.



Just before oil-pump goes on:





Just what an INDIAN named The Salt Cracker need for a gear-nob.
A friend dropped by with this magnificent gift



...made of pure Bonneville salt.










OK; the last part wasn't entirely true.
The nob is made in one of them 3-D 'printing' wonder-machines,
and is made of ABS-plastic.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 08:19:45 AM by octane » Logged

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« Reply #143 on: June 18, 2009, 01:02:25 PM »

This is really a great effort, and you have a LOT of people worldwide rooting for you...
Nice work!
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octane
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The INDIAN "Saltcracker" 650 A-VBF




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« Reply #144 on: June 20, 2009, 05:49:21 AM »

This is really a great effort, and you have a LOT of people worldwide rooting for you...
Nice work!
Thank you very much Ralt !
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« Reply #145 on: June 20, 2009, 06:11:49 AM »

Frame painted.
Engine installed. Need to install clutch and a few other things







A couple of months back I rebuild the blower with new bearings, oil-seals etc.



Problem:
The two bearing at the pulley-side are in NO bearing catalogue whatsoever. Period. Tried all known sources.
Everywhere I was told: "No such thing".
Don't recall the measurement but they were truly wacky.
Even more wacky: one of the original bearings didn't really fit the blower.
Stuck out of its housing (!)




Here's what I had to do;
 insert a 'ring' to make the housing
accept a new bearing of (smaller outside diameter) standard size.




Had to be an 'angular contact' bearing;
(because of the bevel-cut gearwheels at the other end)
with rubber seals;
(to prevent the pressure from the blower escaping through
the bearing. BTW: they are double-row as you simply can't get single-rows with rubber sealing))


Had the same  problem with the second bearing on that end
(left side on the photo above)
but the other way around: the hole was too small,
so the diameter was machined bigger to accept the
bearing mentioned above.


I'm sure this blower was NOT build to be disassembled and put back together

Putting it together I had to mount the bevel-cut gearwheels which are press fit unto the shafts.
Now pressing them on ; one has to make absofåginglutely sure the two shafts/'rotor's
are positioned precisely in a 90deg. angel to each other.
If not; they will collide once rotated. So what you see below is a jig, made to hold the two shafts/'rotor's in such a position.
Holes for the shafts.
Aluminum-"Tits"screwed to the plate goes into the holes in the 'rotor's:












Finally got around to do the last finishing touches and
put the tiny huffer back together properly today:






Gooooodness; there' SO many small things to do !!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 06:19:32 AM by octane » Logged

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« Reply #146 on: June 20, 2009, 08:03:13 AM »

WOW!!!!!!!  now that's building a "bike"
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« Reply #147 on: June 20, 2009, 08:38:28 AM »

nice motor plate.

what is cubic inches of blower?

how many people coming over with you?

whatever your port of entry, i imagine you'll be crossing ohio
on interstate 80 or 90. we are at interstate 77 ,midway to both (actually 5 mins. from 77 and interstate 480) and may be able to put you up. many tools and access to great (&quick) machinists and welder, if needed.

diane and i are leaving for the bub sat. 8/22 at the crack.
will be headed southwest, though not direct to salt.

franey

 

 
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bub '07 - 140.293 a/pg   120" crate street mill      
max 10/07 - a/pf   d license
bub '08 - 153.697 a/pf   pump gas
bub '09 - 156.377 aps/pf  ran out of gear
lta  '10 - 158.208  2 much gear 2x
bub '10 - 158.100  sweetooth gear
lta  7/11 -163.389  7/17/11; 3 run avg.-162.450
                probably it for that mill, as is.
ohio - (1) 185.076 w/#684                                 
          (2) 182.xxx w/20+ mph winds
lta  9/12  -148mph  in 3rd gear w/new #262 ( couldn't
                pull the rear gear in 4 much less 5 )
ohio - (4)  -153.x~in 4th.(+4 @the rear & leaving 1k+
      rpm on the table)

" it's not as easy as it looks. "
                            - franey  8/2007
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« Reply #148 on: June 20, 2009, 09:07:42 PM »


...but it really didn't matter much, as I had to re-work the head anyway,
and BTW these heads are made of marshmellowuminum.


That's funny, i thought that Indian heads were made of Cheesium
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Cheesium
G
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« Reply #149 on: June 20, 2009, 11:29:35 PM »

Lars,

  Your project is a pleasure to follow. The photography is outstanding and your work is artfull. I'm going to miss this thread when you are done.

  I'd like to make some comments on your supercharger. First is the translation of the type of gears that drive the rotors. The mechanics here call them    helical. Bevel cut gears allow the direction of the shafts to angle in a different direction (most commonally 90 degrees).

  It looks like one of the gears is keyed on the rotor. The other one must be a interference fit on the shaft? I have only worked on the Roots type blowers that were used on Detroit Diesels. Both rotors were keyed to the rotors and were adjusted (timed) by moving the gear in or out on the shaft which turns the shaft (lobes) in relation to the the other shaft (lobes). The movement of the gear is positioned by shims ( I think I saw shims in your picture of blower parts). I believe the shims were placed between the bearing and the blower case. This is the accurate way to adjust the lobe clearance easily. The clearances were checked by long feeler gauges through the discharge port. You probably don't have any specifications on the clearances but the clearances should be checked both ways with a slight drag on the driven rotor. If you could find a repair manual on a Detroit diesel 3 cylinder/ 51 series engine it may give you some information that would help. It would seem if the clearances were tighter at the discharge area it would pump more pressure. If you would like, I can look for some information here.

Harvey
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