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Author Topic: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?  (Read 53476 times)

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Offline RichFox

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #75 on: August 29, 2014, 03:25:46 PM »
On the Concord, Blue is correct. I was employed by a large airline when the SST programs were in the proposals stage. And United as well as the others simply decided there was no way to make money flying them. As BOAC and Air France proved. It was a great project for flying the flag as long as the government was picking up the losses. When the Concord made it's PR flights all over the world, we had one on display at SFO at our wash rack. With a pretty new DC10. After a while we were asked to move the DC10 because it made the small size of the Concord way to apparent. So we moved it and AA brought in a DC3 which was more to scale.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 03:30:14 PM by RichFox »

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2014, 03:50:22 PM »
Now let's clarify a little history.  The decision to not put the 205's in TSSC was because the actual drag rise showed they would only have gotten another 5 to 7 mph.  The drag rise was far higher than had been predicted and even 800 mph was unachievable for TSSC.  They had the record, they went supersonic, the car was getting beat to pieces by the shock-plume interactions, it was a prudent decision. It didn't come near the 850 design point and would never have.  This, and the 750 quoted for Thrust 2 comes directly from Noble's own book.  The knowledge that 680 would have been the blowover point didn't come until TSSC was being designed and they analyzed T2 with the same code.

I have no idea from where you got your information about the T2 an TSSC....but I was more than involved in this projects....and I know the facts.....
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 03:52:34 PM by PorkPie »
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Offline martine

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2014, 04:30:51 PM »
Thanks again Blue.

Quote
I would posit that anyone doing a trade study on rockets vs. jets should know what a TRL is.
I am not an engineer (as is apparent) - I had not heard of the term TRL - no need for the put-down!

I do understand your sentiment about BSSC - it is a complex, heavy beast and I'm not qualified to discuss the detailed design - I'll leave that to others.  Some say Apollo was also ridiculously complex, heavy and wasteful.

The initial orders for Concorde were healthy but then the mid 70's oil crisis hit and ruined the economics - all orders were cancelled with only Air France and BA being forced by their governments to continue.  I don't believe the US SST was cancelled because of amazing foresight - it was cancelled because it was over-engineered.  The SST had a higher cruising speed but then needed considerable titanium parts to withstand the heat.  It needed reheat to maintain high speed whereas Concorde only needed reheat during take off and to go transonic.  Before the Paris crash Concorde was profitable for BA - for many senior execs and celebrities Concorde was their transatlantic aircraft of choice - they were willing to pay.  Poor maintenance by Air France contributed to the crash and Air France wanted a way out anyway, so withdrew.  It then became uneconomic for BA to go it alone.

Concorde was a fantastic technological and engineering achievement and when it stopped flying it was the first time in aviation history the world has gone backwards.

I still think the Harrier is better then the F-35!  :wink:
Martin - Bloodhound LSR ambassador

Offline joea

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2014, 06:21:32 PM »
i have to applaud and thank you guys for having this discourse...HERE...

it is a genuine treat to become more informed from genuine healthy dialogue...

Joe :)

velocity

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2014, 02:46:48 AM »
Margin.

Amen to that.

Rarely have we heard, "It went so much faster than any of us thought it would. . . "

Calculate then hope.
In land speed racing even atheists have learned to pray on some days.

At the moment I think we need to pray for sunshine, wind and high pressure over Bonneville.

Offline DaveL

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2014, 06:22:50 PM »
The Bloodhound engineers are obviously capable and smart people so it’s a mystery to me as well why they’ve chosen the path they’re on. As Blue points out, the premise of controllability in requiring both a jet and rocket engine is myth. Also, a liquid fuelled rocket engine with a burn time of 20-30 seconds doesn’t need a complex turbopump system to feed the thrust chamber. Not just a personal opinion, this is supported by the authors of every rocketry textbook I’ve read.
 
I can’t help but wonder if decisions were made with considerations other than purely technical. The project needed to be pitched carefully and it seems to me that to capture the imagination of young people/general public/sponsors/media it needs to appear high tech, contemporary and relevant. A complex 1000 mph ‘car’ made from exotic materials with new technologies and processes, powered by a rocket engine, a jet engine and a F1 engine is probably going to do this. By contrast, a simple basic vehicle using 50-60 year old construction techniques and rocket technology is probably not.

Offline martine

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2014, 04:56:11 PM »
... can’t help but wonder if decisions were made with considerations other than purely technical. The project needed to be pitched carefully and it seems to me that to capture the imagination of young people/general public/sponsors/media it needs to appear high tech, contemporary and relevant. A complex 1000 mph ‘car’ made from exotic materials with new technologies and processes, powered by a rocket engine, a jet engine and a F1 engine is probably going to do this. By contrast, a simple basic vehicle using 50-60 year old construction techniques and rocket technology is probably not.
You could be right there - in which case it's a laudable aim.  In my experience of talking to groups and individuals about BSSC, the complexity does interest and excite the general public - it's so far from a 'conventional' race car it captures their imagination.

I attended a supporters club meeting at the BSSC technical centre this morning and asked Mark Chapman (Chief Engineer) how the car's weight compared to the design goal.  He replied they are currently at 7.75 tonnes against a goal of 7.5.  He said the excess it wasn't critical for the 800 mph runs next year and they are looking to slim the car for the 2016 1000mph runs.  They will be running with 1 hybrid Nammo rocket next year and a cluster of 3 for 2016 and yes he confirmed the very rear of the car would indeed need to change for 2016 to accommodate the cluster.

You guys might be interested/shocked/jealous to know they've spent £17m to date and are expecting on another £8m to complete the car (£10m to end of 2015) and a total of £41m to the end of the project in 2016/17.  They currently employ 80 people including the education team.
Martin - Bloodhound LSR ambassador

Offline Paul.n

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2014, 09:09:25 PM »
Hi Graham, I may have been a little harsh to generalise with my sentiments re “locked away” But it really does appear to look that way from an outsider such as me!  The fact you taught almost 1000 students last year is commendable Graham. However, was the question ever asked of those students, what inspired them or what influenced them in choosing a career which would take them through university? As for Felix, the majority of public probably had never even heard of him until approximately a month or so prior to his jump and therefore highlights a fact that it was not this amazing feat that influenced your students thus inspiring them to choose a STEM career, it simply suggests that this was in the public domain at the time the question was asked and should tell you that, given the same media attention, another project/program could be in its stead. I agree it was brilliant, stunning, challenging, beautiful. But, almost completely pointless? I would have to disagree on this. It was a demonstration of how mankind is able to achieve what is presumed by many as impossible; exercising the brilliance and ingenuity of all those who worked on the program to bring Felix home safe!

The Sunswift project, like that run by SAE-Australasia, with their Formula 1000 car are brilliant programs which do inspire the students and assist in keeping them focused on the very difficult tasks which are placed before them. However, Bloodhound and The Bullet Project’s primary objective is to stimulate the uptake at school level, that’s way before they ever dream of Universities and career choices. The ALSR is a secondary objective!!  Now I’m not saying UNSW is doing nothing to stimulate the interests outside of the University, what I am saying is that for all your efforts and for all the dollars you throw at your programs, you can only ever reach a minor percentage of the population. Something else is needed if we are to succeed in generating the interest in STEM on the scale it is required.

An Iconic program such as BloodhoundSSC has captured the imagination of the United Kingdom on a level unseen before! That is because it is exciting and unimaginable. To capture the mind of Australia, America, or any other Nation with the same enthusiasm and enormity as Bloodhound has in the UK, each Nation needs to have its own iconic program for the people to get behind and support with National pride. A supersonic showdown would inspire the World giving blanket coverage to target a global market.  I too have a more than full time job Graham, I am not interested in getting my name in a record book, I have no wish to be in the public spotlight. I simply recognised that what Bloodhound has created is what is required on a global scale and decided that it was something I could become involved with, give it my best shot and maybe, just maybe, make a difference.

When the world record attempts where held at Daytona Beach, people flocked from across the USA to watch this amazing spectacle. The cars and their drivers where household names. The people did remember, six months down the line who held the WLSR.  Unfortunately as the speeds increased the need for longer stretches of land took the sport away from the public gaze rendering it “out of sight, out of mind”. It was only on occasion that the news channels brought us information on a new world record challenger, other than that, it was down to groups of individuals to hold their own meetings and race for their love of the sport. Todays technology offers all LSR enthusiasts an opportunity to give the sport back to the public at large and reignite that which was lost; allowing public interaction once again.

The fight is to bring the next generation through into STEM careers but to say Bloodhound SSC provides an extensive and fantastic stockpile of educational tools and activities that can be used by anyone, anywhere is, in my opinion, somewhat untrue. It is a British Project which is potentially diluted on its journey to other shores. It may be useful for Universities to currently educate their students but it falls short in inspiring those outside of the UK where it is needed the most.  To stimulate the minds of those who perhaps had never even given a STEM career option a thought is what I am trying to achieve. To inspire a young mind as the Lunar landings and the maiden flight of Concord did for me.

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #83 on: September 01, 2014, 07:12:24 AM »
Now let's clarify a little history.  The decision to not put the 205's in TSSC was because the actual drag rise showed they would only have gotten another 5 to 7 mph.  The drag rise was far higher than had been predicted and even 800 mph was unachievable for TSSC.  They had the record, they went supersonic, the car was getting beat to pieces by the shock-plume interactions, it was a prudent decision. It didn't come near the 850 design point and would never have.  This, and the 750 quoted for Thrust 2 comes directly from Noble's own book.  The knowledge that 680 would have been the blowover point didn't come until TSSC was being designed and they analyzed T2 with the same code.

I have no idea from where you got your information about the T2 an TSSC....but I was more than involved in this projects....and I know the facts.....

Thomas / Pork Pie,

Eric / Blue has been very generous with his knowledge and opinions.  Perhaps you could share what you know?

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #84 on: September 01, 2014, 07:29:47 AM »
The Bloodhound engineers are obviously capable and smart people so it’s a mystery to me as well why they’ve chosen the path they’re on. As Blue points out, the premise of controllability in requiring both a jet and rocket engine is myth. Also, a liquid fuelled rocket engine with a burn time of 20-30 seconds doesn’t need a complex turbopump system to feed the thrust chamber. Not just a personal opinion, this is supported by the authors of every rocketry textbook I’ve read.


Whilst looking for something else, I stumbled upon the following on the Bloodhound web site (http://www.bloodhoundssc.com/project/car/engines/rocket-engine):

"In the very early stages of the Project, BLOODHOUND SSC was intended to be purely rocket-powered. While this offered certain performance advantages, rockets are not as easy to control as jets, so it was decided to combine both powerplants to gain power and control."

I am only just starting to learn about rocketry, but understand that the approach and technology in general use varies depending on where in the world you happen to be.  I therefore speculate that they were unable to find a suitably controllable rocket easily available in the UK.

Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #85 on: September 01, 2014, 03:13:29 PM »
In the book published about BLOODHOUND SSC the four prime objectives are written down.  There is no mention of land speed record or indeed any similar wording used in any of these four. Only in three is a speed objective mentioned - the 'magic number' of 1000.   

I therefore speculate that they were unable to find a suitably controllable rocket easily available in the UK.
Remember Ron Ayers was a rocket aerodynamacist and his fellow engineers/scientists could probably have found some old UK technology if they had wanted. The Brit Barry Bowles used surplus technology in his 'Blonde Bombshell' rocket cars and set a British speed record.  Richard Brown developed his own man-safe hybrid HTP/HTPB rockets, which he rode across the salt flats in 1999 at 365 mph peak (on two wheels).  The rocket engineer Daniel Jubb (Falcon) probably fitted the image of a 'rocket engineer/scientist' for todays youth, but as has been said by another the up-scaling of the fuel 'rod' did not perform.

Nothing would have been 'easy' to obtain or make, but equally there were UK routes to explore in rocketry.

If you divorce STEM recruitment from a Land Speed Record attempt, then other nations beyond the British shoreline could still bid for the absolute record.  Wouldn't it be good if some of the next generation of engineers were to produce an outright bid vehicle for a fraction of the cost of BLOODHOUND SSC programme, to show future employers and engineering business owners that they can spend less to achieve a goal - or spend less to make a bigger profit on any piece of engineering machinery. When do you need rapid prototyping for a one-off piece?

Away from the outright why not produce an unlimited wheeldriven contender for an LSR or an limited streamlined bike or a boat or an electric vehicle that can travel one thousand kilometres under continuous motion ........ :?

Malcolm, Derby, England   
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline Graham

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #86 on: September 01, 2014, 08:56:46 PM »

...why not produce an... electric vehicle that can travel one thousand kilometres under continuous motion ........ :?

Malcolm, Derby, England   

Working on it  :cheers:
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Offline Blue

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2014, 01:49:25 AM »
Now let's clarify a little history.  The decision to not put the 205's in TSSC was because the actual drag rise showed they would only have gotten another 5 to 7 mph.  The drag rise was far higher than had been predicted and even 800 mph was unachievable for TSSC.  They had the record, they went supersonic, the car was getting beat to pieces by the shock-plume interactions, it was a prudent decision. It didn't come near the 850 design point and would never have.  This, and the 750 quoted for Thrust 2 comes directly from Noble's own book.  The knowledge that 680 would have been the blowover point didn't come until TSSC was being designed and they analyzed T2 with the same code.

I have no idea from where you got your information about the T2 an TSSC....but I was more than involved in this projects....and I know the facts.....
Actually, my sources are Richard Noble from the book Thrust, and Andy Green from our personal conversations when he toured the Fossett LSR program in August 2007.  Andy, Jayne Millington (sp?), and the BSSC logistics chief (I apologize for not having his name at hand) were all very inquisitive, helpful, and informative.  No one mentioned that BSSC had already been launched to beat us if we got the record (VBEG for the Brits!). 

We discussed many subjects and innovations that later were used on BSSC including the variable speed brake.  From the initial conceptual renderings of BSSC, this feature did not appear until later in the program.  Andy and I had a long talk about the benefit of our plan to install a parachute tube cover that would double as streamlining for the blunt aft-facing tubes combined as a variable aero brake that could extend to greater cross section with decreasing speed on a constant force actuator.  While BSSC's speed brakes do not have the dual purpose of the ones design for the Fossett car, the concept originated with the Fossett team.
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Offline Blue

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2014, 02:18:47 AM »
Thanks again Blue.

Quote
I would posit that anyone doing a trade study on rockets vs. jets should know what a TRL is.
I am not an engineer (as is apparent) - I had not heard of the term TRL - no need for the put-down!

I do understand your sentiment about BSSC - it is a complex, heavy beast and I'm not qualified to discuss the detailed design - I'll leave that to others.  Some say Apollo was also ridiculously complex, heavy and wasteful.

The initial orders for Concorde were healthy but then the mid 70's oil crisis hit and ruined the economics - all orders were cancelled with only Air France and BA being forced by their governments to continue.  I don't believe the US SST was cancelled because of amazing foresight - it was cancelled because it was over-engineered.  The SST had a higher cruising speed but then needed considerable titanium parts to withstand the heat.  It needed reheat to maintain high speed whereas Concorde only needed reheat during take off and to go transonic.  Before the Paris crash Concorde was profitable for BA - for many senior execs and celebrities Concorde was their transatlantic aircraft of choice - they were willing to pay.  Poor maintenance by Air France contributed to the crash and Air France wanted a way out anyway, so withdrew.  It then became uneconomic for BA to go it alone.

Concorde was a fantastic technological and engineering achievement and when it stopped flying it was the first time in aviation history the world has gone backwards.

I still think the Harrier is better then the F-35!  :wink:
The focus on TRL was not meant as a put-down, it was meant to point anyone who would propose a solution to the ALSR to do their research.  Rocket engines have been made by many countries and companies in many chemistries.  To propose a novel chemistry at a previously un-tested scale requires the resources of a nation.  An ALSR program should plan for something off-the-shelf. 

Actually,  everything from the A-12/YF-12/SR-71 has been a big step backwards in speed.  The XB-70 was a victim of its own complexity.  The X-33 a victim of too much technology, not enough simplicity.  The F-35 should have been canceled 10 years ago.  It still beats a Typhoon one-on-one, both are over cost.  As a Marine, I love the Harrier; it wouldn't survive 10 seconds after BVR contact with a 5th generation fighter.

Along the way, the 777 ate the A340 alive;  4:1 sales advantage and 10 year old 777's are worth triple the lease rate of a comparable age A340.  The 737NG and Next families are 3 to 5% better than the scarebusses, and the 777X is going to anihilate the A350.  I'm not a fan of the systems of the 787, however it's in-service reliability is no worse than the A340 was and it's a lot more profitable.  Airbus was quite late on the 380 and will never break even on it.  For what Europe spent on the A400, they could have had double the number of C-17's carrying twice as much per airframe.

Apollo was simple, rugged, and efficient.  Planning in the USSR and here in the early 60's showed the need for two S-V class or one "Nova" class boosters to get us to the moon and back.  The Russians failed with 4 attempts with the N-1.  We short cut the development and figured out how to do it with one S-V.  Wasteful and heavy? No, it had margin.  It could actually start on the pad and abort if the start didn't go right.  A feature that Space-X uses today and has saved a launch.  Complex?  Just the opposite.  Von Braun proved that there was a trade off between reliability and redundancy.  Too much redundancy bred too much weight and complexity which reduced reliability.  It was better to beef up basic systems to not fail and reduce the need for redundancy.  This left mass margin that was later used to add the lunar rovers to the mission.
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Offline Blue

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Re: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?
« Reply #89 on: September 02, 2014, 02:21:10 AM »
Away from the outright why not produce an unlimited wheeldriven contender for an LSR ........ :?

Malcolm, Derby, England   
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See you at World Finals.
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