Class consolidation

[landracing]

Rosemeyer,

Not controversial at all buddy, just your thought and my thought... Keep it coming, you have great thoughts and I read them and think for awhile... Easier thinking about your posts then Jacks, his posts make my head hurt...

Jon

[landracing]

Up until the "Hayabusa" era, all the fast records were help by Triumphs (Mininno), Harleys (Campos), Vincents (Matson) and only one Kawasaki (Toy)..... For siton bikes.

Jon

[JackD]

All of the bike records prior to 1978 and some others remain with AMA sorta. Class C only exists in AMA. The start of the supervision at Speedweek only under SCTA was started with the full disclosure and at the wishes and pleasure of the board. The elimination of the classes you mention did not occur , but rather SCTA brought the classes up to the standard that included Vintage and Push Rod that were not found in AMA prior to their supervision of their event. The riders repeatedly were asked if they wished to affiliate with AMa and declined.
Speedweek after AMA featured an annual open meeting for all interested parties and actually resulted in very few rule changes. That is not the case now and if it makes your head hurt, I understand.
Rules like the "Dustbin" are their own reward.
A famous 12 meter sailor named Mike from SD said,  "Those work just like a spinnaker in a cross wind, But at least when the wind direction changes on the water you can see it coming and put it away quick."
I noticed the new organizations like ECTA and NASA seem to have simular ideas.
In the days of Warner and Tater, they got in the 2 club with some pretty fast bikes that predate the store bought ride by almost 30 years.
REMARKABLE

[rosemeyer]

To Scott Guthrie.

-16 Sept 2005: "...class proliferation is already out of control!"

-6 Dec 2005: "I would be very careful about merging or eliminating classes!"

Scott, please, could you clarify for me these 2 (apparently conflicting) statements? I must be stupid, 'cos I don't get it. Sorry.

Does that mean that you advocate status quo?

[rosemeyer]

To Scott Guthrie.
"racers want to measure their performance against bikes similar to theirs"
What I wanted to say is that (in my opinion only maybe) you must have an even playing field.
Even me, I understand that there is not much hope for a push rod engine to beat a 4-valve DOHC equiped bike. Consequently, we must have enough classes to allow different types of engines/fuel/frames/aero to enter.
I presume that the owner of a 1000cc Buell for example can't compete against a 1000cc Suzuki GXRS. Just in the showroom, there is already 70hp difference! A 1200 H-D Sportster gives 100hp to a Hayabusa!
Even allowing to tuning, performance parts, lightening, boosting, etc...it's obvious that some engine types need to be in different classes than the latest Nippon technology.
This is what I was trying to convey in my intervention, but I accept that it may have been badly worded.

[JackD]

With 5 flags over the MC in just the US, how is one to know what it is supposed to look like ?
IDBA had a records program for bikes that featured retirement of the records every few years for obvious to them financial reasons. They are gone now for many of those same reasons.
The practitioners of the "World's Oldest Profession" follow the business around but at least the product is the same.

[landracing]

Even me, I understand that there is not much hope for a push rod engine to beat a 4-valve DOHC equiped bike. Consequently, we must have enough classes to allow different types of engines/fuel/frames/aero to enter.
I presume that the owner of a 1000cc Buell for example can't compete against a 1000cc Suzuki GXRS. Just in the showroom, there is already 70hp difference! A 1200 H-D Sportster gives 100hp to a Hayabusa!

There are plenty of examples in the record books that Pushrod engine are close to the 4valve DOHC records. Not a good example. ITs not all about HP.

For example
Out of the 2005 Rule book:
1350cc Class
APS-F  - Suzuki Hayabusa - 199.153 - 2003
APS-PF - Harley - 197.199 - 1996

Very close speeds 6 years apart...

1650cc Class
A-G - Suzuki - 158.525 - 2003
a-pg - Harley - 168.382 - 2004

Just two examples glancing thru. What does this show, that pushrod engines have the ability to beat 4-Valve DOHC bikes....
It all depends on how and determination it can be done....

Jon

[rosemeyer]

Jon,

I have to admit, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!! Looking through present records I found myself several examples showing that pushrods are faster than 4-valve DOHC bikes in some classes.
I am amazed how they do it, starting from such a technical handicap.
But I take your point; it can't be all about power.

Do you think there is a case for putting them in the same class then?

[JackD]

Class A/PS gas Suzy's are going almost 200 in the 1/4.
Something is lacking.

[firemanjim]

Jon,2 examples out of how many? And really slow 4 cylinder speeds,not indicative of what they are capable of.Look at the MPS 1350 records,213 and 220 compared to 172 and 190.The "A" class records are softer in some of those classes only because no one has aimed at them seriously as they have at the M classes.
I am all to familiar with the limitations of the pushrod motors but am too stubborn to give em up.

[JackD]

There is some real reasons to protect the HD and many other vintage and classic designs. But don't do it without recognition of past performances that are time honored and pretty fast. The forum la now used for "Push rod" had a target to disallow a particular modern motor but might have missed the mark and included others that were not closely considered.
The first thing I heard recently on the subject was with a person that should be considered an expert on the type of motor that seems to be the unintended victim and he was never asked. It doesn't hurt to ask, but to come back from the consequence of an uninformed decision is really hard on everybody.
Racers are a mix of "hard core" get it right vocal types and "dead by the side of the road" types that vote with their feet.
You have to seek out the information from all of them if you are to be well advised and not cloud your ideas with a narrow view.
There are going to be leaders, but it helps if everybody is at least marching in the same direction for a reason or you will lose them.
That might even be an objective that is less obvious.

[landracing]

Jon,

Do you think there is a case for putting them in the same class then?

The answer In my opinion is NO.. There is no case to put them together.
It would be nice to have them all together to limit the amount of classes. But back to reality, there would be to much politics to combine classes.

With all the advances in technology you have to really respect what these guys (harleys) did in the 70's and 80's. With a hard look at the 230 mph Dave Campos bike. Which was the motor test bed for the Easyrider Streamliner.  
Dan Kinsey is another example. Harley powered bikes have a nice advantage over the DOHC on width. Ever seen the Tramp III...

Jon

[landracing]

And really slow 4 cylinder speeds,not indicative of what they are capable of.

There are tons of records in the book pushrod and nonpushrod that are non indicative of what they are capable of. And the 200 mph club minimums best shows what the capabilities are. But so what, you choose what you choose to run. In fact Greenleaf record in the APS-PG class 1650cc (i use this class because it was for Harley guys), record is 168.xxx with a full fairing. Now move to same class unfaired its 178.xxx in M-PG. 10 mph faster then faired. Just goes to show depends on who has their stuff together and who might be lacking...

I see coming next year huge speeds out of three "Pushrod" teams that I think will blow peoples minds and out of those three team I predict one 220+ MPH run, One 230+ mph run, One 240+ MPH speed..... Do you know who they are. Once you figure that out then you can play mulitple choice to find which is going to run what speed above....

And just for the record Dave Matson NEVER wanted to be put into his own class of Vintage with his Vincent, or Pushrod for that matter but he is because its the rules.. This guy would RATHER run head to head with anybody... Just ask him yourself... I know I did and I just smiled at his answers....

Jon

[landracing]

Yes you are very correct Scott, I spend as much time as I can around him and his wife when they come out... Really a fun guy to talk too. He told us and he doesn't care what class he's in now, he just wants a "good record." I ask him to clarify what a "good record" was and he said, "A really fast one." and he will be out trying again and again till he gets it.

Jon

[DKA]

From my novice perspective, I think that  more classes will attract  more novices by allowing a place for them to race with the equipment and knowledge that they have at this time.  Some of those will race one year and not return, some will get hooked and return with better prepared equipment the next year and the next, and will progress with equipment and gained knowledge up through their particular class. Then, there are the people who come back year after year longing for higher and higher speeds with better and better equipment and knowledge, utilizing the progression of established classes. It may be that everyone who is racing for the ultimate highest speed will be using similar equipment ('busas?), but they will have gotten there from different routes (roots?).  I'm starting in a production vintage class in '06, because that is what I own, and already find my mind designing a "A" or "APS" for the following years.  I count on the myriad of classes  to allow me to compete.  Thanks for giving me the chance to do so.
dka