Author Topic: Supercharger stageing, compounding,  (Read 35047 times)

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Offline jl222

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Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« on: February 14, 2009, 11:47:54 PM »
After reading some recent posts on boost, I thought I would post some information and pictures on some old technology that has not been used on gasoline powered LSR engines. 

Here is a picture of a Rolls Royce cut-a-way showing the air flow in a two stage blower.



A more simple picture of the same type of system.




Offline jl222

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2009, 11:50:54 PM »
Here is another cut-a-way of a three stage system off a tractor puller.  The bottom picture shows a two stage system.




Offline jl222

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2009, 11:53:34 PM »
Here are some turbo compounding pictures of the Wright R3350 turbo compound engine.







Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2009, 11:57:17 PM »
John, do you feel turbo-compounding is needed at Bonneville?

I've always been intrigued with compounding but in it's place...
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline jl222

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2009, 12:09:39 AM »
We feel we have plenty of power without it, but it might be useful in a smaller engine.


     JL222
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 01:25:30 AM by jl222 »

Offline jl222

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2009, 12:11:03 AM »
Here is another graph from Recardo that shows power increase from water injection.


McRat

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2009, 12:55:54 AM »
Holset has a commercial system engineered for over-the-road trucks that uses turbine recovery power.  Not sure if it's made production yet.

In a non-supercharged class, turbine recovery would act much like increased displacement.  The power stroke of the engine becomes more than just the 180 deg of crank rotation, as it continues to supply power after BDC by using the released gases for crankshaft torque while the exhaust valve has already closed.

The reason for "staged" turbocharging with diesels is very different.  While there have been single turbochargers designed to supply over 5:1 PR, none are available for purchase, they were made by Garrett for the CIA/NASA for high-altitude, long-range spycraft.  Diesels can use over 5:1 PR without major issues, so what you do instead is to feed one turbo into another to get those boost levels efficiently.

But there is a drawback, regardless of what the shops who sell twins will tell you.  The best compressor efficiency is 80%.  Maybe.  So if you need to run two turbos compounded, the best you can ever get is 64% efficiency.  Most likely you'll be 70/70, or 49% efficiency.  The lost efficiency becomes extra heat in the intake charge and extra backpressure (drive pressure) in the exhaust.  The wet-dream, is a 6:1 PR single turbo with better than 65% efficiency, but you need connections to NASA to steal one.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 01:08:56 AM by McRat »

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2009, 01:10:30 AM »
I should have stated in a gasoline engine.

On another note back in the late 80's I was involved in a high altitude (60,000 ft) piston engine RPV (remotely piloted vehicle). We built almost everything in house as it was a government project. The turbocharger had a 6:1 pressure ratio. You might recognise it as the predator today.


Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline jl222

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2009, 01:21:10 AM »
John, do you feel turbo-compounding is needed at Bonneville?

I've always been intrigued with compounding but in it's place...

 Dynoroom

 I need to modify my reply to you, I know you said tubo-compounding but I was thinking staging. The problem with compounding would be building a drive system but the R3350 got 200hp from each unit.
 We were at Troys for dinner and I had him post these pictures for me because my computer doesn't do it + he knows how. I decided to post about the water injection when you replied. Anyhow Carl was stageing not turbo-compounding

    JL222 :-D

McRat

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2009, 06:11:17 AM »
I should have stated in a gasoline engine.

On another note back in the late 80's I was involved in a high altitude (60,000 ft) piston engine RPV (remotely piloted vehicle). We built almost everything in house as it was a government project. The turbocharger had a 6:1 pressure ratio. You might recognise it as the predator today.




Very cool.  Any extra chargers left over from that program? :evil:

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2009, 10:19:52 AM »
If you take a real close look at the background in that picture you might recognise the patch of desert........
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline RichFox

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2009, 11:08:24 AM »
I don't know if it's still in the rules but at one time Turbo-compound engines ran as supercharged class. Thanks Bruce Johnson. Always liked the 3350 when the piston engine overhaul shop was still running.

Offline jl222

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2009, 01:52:28 PM »
McRat

   Airplanes staged for the same reason staging multiplys the boost. Boost not possible without staging.

                      JL222

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2009, 02:09:39 PM »
hummm it seems to me airplanes need compounding and or staging because at the altitude they operate in there is no "air"!... down here on earth i don't see the benefit... my motors work well at 30 lbs boost, at 36lbs the head castings start to give up... we really don't need to talk about 60lb spikes....hahahahahahah
Kent

McRat

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Re: Supercharger stageing, compounding,
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2009, 02:15:47 PM »
McRat

   Airplanes staged for the same reason staging multiplys the boost. Boost not possible without staging.

                      JL222

Yeah, the airplanes get all the good stuff!  :-D