Author Topic: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?  (Read 15061 times)

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McRat

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50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« on: February 11, 2009, 10:28:39 PM »
I've been kind of out of the loop with what the drag racers are doing with gasoline.

But somebody is trying to convince me they are running 50psi supercharger boost pressure with 15:1 pistons on race gasoline???

Has technology changed that much? 

Offline Harold Bettes

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2009, 10:41:37 PM »
The correct answer is NOPE! :roll:

15:1 static with intercoolers AND triptane still won't make the combination work at any place they drag race (even at Bandimere in Denver, 5880'). :evil: :-P :-o I don't think that you could inject enough H2O to overcome the nasty numbers that 50psi would make happen once the intake valve closes. :wink:

Or as Buddy Holly said, "Rave on" is the best way to describe what they've been trying to swamp you with. :mrgreen:

Kick back and do the math....... :cheers:

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HB2 :-)
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McRat

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2009, 10:50:40 PM »
The correct answer is NOPE! :roll:

15:1 static with intercoolers AND triptane still won't make the combination work at any place they drag race (even at Bandimere in Denver, 5880'). :evil: :-P :-o I don't think that you could inject enough H2O to overcome the nasty numbers that 50psi would make happen once the intake valve closes. :wink:

Or as Buddy Holly said, "Rave on" is the best way to describe what they've been trying to swamp you with. :mrgreen:

Kick back and do the math....... :cheers:

Regards,
HB2 :-)

Well, there is always new stuff happening, but I thought that was a bit ridiculous. 

Offline MAZDA1807

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2009, 11:02:41 PM »
I thought the "IMPORT CROWD" was already doing this with out that much boost(10-15psi).
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Offline John Burk

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2009, 09:14:40 PM »
Maybe it's possible with efi direct injection .


Offline Dynoroom

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2009, 09:35:56 PM »
Why do people relate "boost" to power?
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McRat

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2009, 10:57:59 PM »
Why do people relate "boost" to power?

I works for me! :-D

Yes, we run 15:1 and 60psi boost, but that's diesel.  I can't imagine the piston on a gas engine getting very far up before autoignition.  Yeah, direct injection might do it, but I don't think racers are running it at the drags yet.

Offline desotoman

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2009, 12:17:52 AM »

But somebody is trying to convince me they are running 50psi supercharger boost pressure with 15:1 pistons on race gasoline???


Drag racers usually push the limit to the max. I was talking to a Top Alcohol Funny Car racer the other day and they only run around 12-1 compression static, and try to put in 50 plus pounds of boost. But that is with Alcohol. 

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Offline Dynoroom

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2009, 12:19:37 AM »
Why do people relate "boost" to power?

I works for me! :-D

Yes, we run 15:1 and 60psi boost, but that's diesel.  I can't imagine the piston on a gas engine getting very far up before autoignition.  Yeah, direct injection might do it, but I don't think racers are running it at the drags yet.

So, if I have a t-3 turbo and a t-18 turbo running 20 lbs or 72" in/hg why won't they make the same horse power?
Michael LeFevers
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Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline jl222

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2009, 02:08:03 AM »
Why do people relate "boost" to power?

  Yea dynoroom I know where your coming from. I always ask ''what was the temp?''
 My heros were the Formula 1 guys when they ran tubos.
 In [The 1000 bhp Grand Prix cars] book pg. 8 ''At Monza in 1986 Berger saw a 5.5 bar flash reading from his BMW/Mader-Benetton; Heini Mader estimated over 1300 bhp. The 85 BMW and 86 BMW/Mader engines regularly qualified at 5.3 bar and at such extreme levels cooling is everything.''
 Thats 1300 bhp out of 1.5 liters or about 90 cubic inches and 5.5 bar is 66 LBS BOOST!
 Compression was 7.5
        JL222
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 02:10:57 AM by jl222 »

Offline jl222

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2009, 02:27:15 AM »
Why do people relate "boost" to power?

I works for me! :-D

Yes, we run 15:1 and 60psi boost, but that's diesel.  I can't imagine the piston on a gas engine getting very far up before autoignition.  Yeah, direct injection might do it, but I don't think racers are running it at the drags yet.

So, if I have a t-3 turbo and a t-18 turbo running 20 lbs or 72" in/hg why won't they make the same horse power?
[/quote
     
   Surely you know so why are you asking?

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McRat

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2009, 10:59:47 AM »
Why do people relate "boost" to power?

I works for me! :-D

Yes, we run 15:1 and 60psi boost, but that's diesel.  I can't imagine the piston on a gas engine getting very far up before autoignition.  Yeah, direct injection might do it, but I don't think racers are running it at the drags yet.

So, if I have a t-3 turbo and a t-18 turbo running 20 lbs or 72" in/hg why won't they make the same horse power?

Drive pressure and compressor efficiency are part of the tuning process when selecting turbos.  Run it off it's map, and low HP won't be your biggest concern.  Been there, done that have have the T-shirt. :-D

 :cheers:

I'm running a compound setup for testing purposes, a GT4202R + GT5533R.  While both are in the center of their maps (using a turbo RPM sensor), it seems I'm not working them equally.  So I'm making a change and running them again. 

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2009, 12:26:18 PM »
Horsepower is all about getting more air into the engine. You can squirt a fire hose of gasoline.

Normally aspirated engines require a huge amount of work to improve the air flow. The only air available is what the vacuum from the piston creates, ram air effect, and really good flow through the system.

Raising the compression ratio pushes the molecules closer together and improves the amount of fuel that is ignited.

The limit is when autoignition starts raising its ugly head. At some point you have enough heat and pressure to cause the mixture to start ignition way too early in the cycle. Destructive detonation is the result.

Adding a supercharger or turbo to the equation doesn't change the mechanics of autoignition. You don't need as high a compression ratio because you are putting pressurized air into the cylinder and then compressing it further.

A high compression ratio on a supercharged engine isn't going to work on gasoline.

You can't have autoignition with direct injection because there isn't any fuel in the air at the autoignition point. But because you have the conditions, you don't have good control over the ignition point. Does the spark plug cause ignition, or the direct injection? You have to have a good mixture for the spark plug to ignite, so the injection has to come earlier. If it detonates then the direct injection hasn't gained you anything.

Boost does normally equate to power, because more air is available to put more fuel in and create more heat, which is more horsepower. You keep bumping the boost until something melts or breaks, make that part stronger, increase the boost until the next thing melts or breaks . . .
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McRat

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2009, 12:39:49 PM »
... Does the spark plug cause ignition, or the direct injection? ...

That is really interesting.  Only gases burn, so how fast a fuel changes to vapor determines how fast the pressure can rise.  Diesel vaporizes poorly, gasoline vaporizes quickly.  Could you direct inject gasoline without plugs?  Yup.  You'd retard the timing quite a bit.  I have no idea what the outcome would be though.  Putting gas in a diesel damages the injection system, so I'm not going to experiment. :-D

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: 50 PSI boost, 15:1 compression on gasoline?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2009, 01:28:26 PM »
I've been kind of out of the loop with what the drag racers are doing with gasoline.

But somebody is trying to convince me they are running 50psi supercharger boost pressure with 15:1 pistons on race gasoline???

Has technology changed that much? 
Sounds extreme to me. 

This sounds like a statement based on "advertised" ratings.  You can buy 15:1 "advertised" pistons for almost anything, but the actual static ratio is a function of real volumes.  If he's using open chamber heads, he may actually only be achieving 10:1, for argument sake.
 
Keep in mind that 15:1 static doesn't equal 15:1 actual.  I'd ask what his cam timing is.   

I'd calculate my cylinder/head volumes to determine my actual static CR before I'd assume anything.  You can read the boost gage, but you've got to know your volumes.
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Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll: