Author Topic: rear wheel steering  (Read 22490 times)

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Offline hawkwind

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rear wheel steering
« on: January 01, 2009, 06:31:52 AM »
 hello im very interested in gaining as much information as possible about how one goes about designing rear wheel steering , especially anything about  the setup thrust SCC used , i believe it was two rear wheels slightly offset and one behind the other,anyone able to assist?
cheers  and a happy new year to all  :-D
gary 
slower than most

Offline Glen

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2009, 09:53:20 AM »
AHHHH not again, best talk to those who have tried.
Glen
Crew on Turbinator II

South West, Utah

dwarner

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2009, 10:50:43 AM »
First you will need a ski-billion dollar computer to enable the rear steer to work as good as SST. Normal backyard guys like us have yet to make it work. There is a rule against rear steer for cars, have yet to see an attempt with a bike yet.

The last time Chet Herbet's last car ran the driver climbed out about the two mike mark and said in effect "...this thing is going in the dumpster!!!!"

DW

Offline Stainless1

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2009, 11:06:58 AM »
Hawk, our first attempt had 2 wheels side by side, wrecked  :| Second had them aligned one behind the other in a row, the thought was that would provide a little dampening effect, wrecked  :| 
The rule that car steering is provided by 2 front wheels is courtesy of the Bockscar streamliner. 
More info, the car fronts had a 18 inch track for both attempts. the back in the side by side was about 10 inch track.  Wheelbase was about 10 feet. 
Try to not do anything too crazy, sure the fastest car in the world steers from the rear but I would re-look at what they had to do to make it work, yes, fish steer from the rear too, but they seem to know what they are doing...  :roll:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Online manta22

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2009, 12:10:42 PM »
Gary;

I asked Andy Green how he ever got used to rear wheel steering and he said "I never did, really." Of course he did a magnificant job driving Thrust SSC anyway.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2009, 08:27:43 PM »
Hi, Gary -

Okay, maybe there's some vehicular dynamic issue here that I'm overlooking, but this topic keeps coming up, so I'm going to ask what I think is an obvious question.

What advantage can one gain through rear wheel steering? 

Sounds scary, regardless of how the vehicle is powered, but then my only encounter with RWS is operating a forklift.

Chris

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline hawkwind

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2009, 11:48:04 PM »
Thanks  for the replies , Im in the process of designing a 3 wheel streamliner ( ok for FIM or DLRA) that could be converted to a 4 wheel streamliner with a minimum of effort , I spose it could be considered similar to the pollywog  in wheel layout , I was exploring the option of front wheel drive with fixed wheels and rear wheel steering , further research has shown it( rear steering) to be an extreamly difficult task ,not impossible but near to. I also came across some other types of steering that I have not seen used or tried before in LSR will post these up when i learn more about them for comment,, I did come across a very interesting vehicle (Dymaxion ) and an even more interesting individule  buckmaster (bucky) fuller ,only 3 vehicles where ever made ,one is in a museum , another was traced to brooklin in the 60"s and had covered 300,000 miles ,I also noted that the bloodhound is again a trike type wheel arrangement but this time a delta config with front wheel steering, ,and some news today Andy Green visited lake gairdner last week and pronounced it to be the best site bar none he has ever seen and believes that will be the prefered site for the record attempt  :-D
cheers
gary
slower than most

Offline Stainless1

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2009, 12:02:37 AM »
Andy probably hasn't been on the other side of floating mountain.....
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2009, 08:07:50 AM »
No matter what kind of unconventional design makes you even think of rear wheel steering, forget it. Now. Forever.

There is no stable position and as soon as you apply any steering input it wants to go that way forever and fast. Over correcting and speed wobbles are the norm.





Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline DallasV

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2009, 09:56:28 AM »
The rear wheel steering isn't the tough part, the tough part is finding a driver with experience in handling a 200 mph forklift.
Records or parts, I didn't come all this way not to break something.

Blue

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2009, 02:49:44 PM »
No matter what kind of unconventional design makes you even think of rear wheel steering, forget it. Now. Forever.

There is no stable position and as soon as you apply any steering input it wants to go that way forever and fast. Over correcting and speed wobbles are the norm.
Ditto.

Big time.

I get asked about this a lot and have come up with a simple exercise for anyone to understand how rear wheel steering is unstable compared to front wheel steering:

1. Take a wrapping paper tube and hold it with your thumb and forefinger about 3" from one end.  Let it hang.  This is stable.  To move the tube to the right, we move our hand to the right and lower part of the tube follows.  When we stop moving, the whole tube comes to rest.  This is called positive stability.

2. Now hold the tube in the middle.  The tube can be at any angle and moving left and right has no stability effect, positive or negative.  This is called neutral stability.

3. Now place your hand under the tube and try not to move.  Without constant correction, the tube falls over.  This is static instability.  If we constantly make little motions to keep the tube upright, we have created artificial static stability however the system is still unstable without power and constant control input.

4. Now try "turning".  To move the tube right, we must move our hand left, then right very quickly.  To stop a turn, we have to move our hand out in front of the CG of the tube to stop the momentum, then back very quickly to stabilize the tube in one spot.  This is dynamic instability, the situation that Andy Green found himself in. 

The Thrust SSC team thought they had tested this by building a Mini Cooper with rear wheel steering.  While it demonstrated stability at low speeds, this stability was caused by the damping forces of the steering system and the tires.  This damping increases linearly with speed, while the inherent dynamic instability forces increase with the square of the speed. 

If they had driven the Mini to 150+ mph, it would have swapped ends just like a forklift or a shopping cart pushed backwards.  Try the shopping cart.  Easy at walking speed, run with it around some corners and be ready to let go!

Read Andy's account in Noble's book; it is well described and shows a big disconnect between the designers' intent and reality.  Andy has been quoted on many occaisions that no one, ever, should make an LSR car with rear wheel steering.  Playing with the cardboard tube and shopping carts can help you understand why.

Offline jdincau

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2009, 09:22:29 PM »
Blue, what book would that be?
Unless it's crazy, ambitious and delusional, it's not worth our time!

Offline interested bystander

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2009, 09:38:03 PM »
A question yrs truly asks when somewhat unconventional ideas come up is . . .

"And just what will this do to give you a faster time slip?"

Next time Doug Kruse is at El Mirage with the Ferguson 'liner ask him about his ride with Mickey Thompson on the Long Beach Freeway back when Mickey was examining RWS for Indy!
5 mph in pit area (clothed)

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2009, 12:09:02 AM »
Eric! Excellent answer.

Quote
If they had driven the Mini to 150+ mph, it would have swapped ends just like a forklift or a shopping cart pushed backwards.  Try the shopping cart.  Easy at walking speed, run with it around some corners and be ready to let go!

It's much more fun with the forklift! Come on, you haven't lived until you've done a speed wobble with a forklift!
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline RidgeRunner

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Re: rear wheel steering
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2009, 08:01:03 AM »
     I always thought lifting the inside front 'round corners kinda spiced up the workday............

                         Ed