Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...

[SPARKY]

Wow---what a great thread and I am not a Busa or Kawa kindda guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stainless1]

Wow---what a great thread and I am not a Busa or Kawa kindda guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Sparky, if it makes you feel better my bike had 4 wheels.... 

[joea]

kzscott......you have a good grasp of nitrous at the dragstrip..congrats...

no im not kidding, ran many years at dragstrip and street on abunch (relative term) of
nitrous on aircooled stuff and never hurt anything.....

first time at Bonn with same setup detonated at some point soon after the about the 1/2 mile
mark.....

tried to help someone on this site in distant past, and they refused to listen to my humble
opinion on plugs and fuel, as they were under the care of a "big name professional race shop"....
it was very frustrating to then have to help this fellow sort thru the aftermath of detonation.....

kz.....(modification) I cant say enough about running a fuel like c-16 or better for ALL the fuel....and taking out plenty of timing out.....and getting the nitrous to fuel ratios like stainless mentioned..im sure you will succeed with flyingcolors at a maxton or equivalent venue....with the kind of loads you are seeking...

Joe

[Cajun Kid]

I was going to put a little bit of Juice on my car motor next year and run the fuel class on occasion,, biut after reading all these posts and N20... man it just confirms to me what little I know...

Also that in reality N20 is not cheaper HP..the way I see it you get more HP for the $, then you blow it up and spend the $ you saved to fix it... so round about all manners of HP may cost the same

Charles

( I was only thinking of a little juice in high gear only at Maxton, the last 1/3 of the mile)

[RichFox]

I put a 125hp kit on my motor once. Worked nicely. But after a while the car began to slow down a little. Not fresh anymore. It was very easy to go to the larger nozzles. Got the speed back. For a little while. Then it was easy to tell what was wrong with the motor. The moral here is N2O is not to be used by lazy people. Otherwise it's probubly OK.

[joea]

cajun, it can certainly be a great way to make cheap hp.....

and I cant emphasize enough about nitrous hp compared to
base engine hp.......as it becomes tough NOT to want to really
push that %.....and imo...there in lies the trouble...simply much
less forgiving...like certain medicines with a very narrow
lethal dose to effective dose range....trying to manage it
with egt;s and a/f can be simply futile....

for many years i though i couldnt afford to go turbo.....i could though
afford a new set of pistons or two each year......it was fun and educational...
eventually it became ridiculous.. more than just pistons....
the continued pursuit/desire for higher speed does not diminish...though imo the predictability
and management of higher and higher nitrous hp to base engine power desired...(ie greater than
200% increases) like higher and greater and greater crack cocaine needs.....becomes fraught with bigger lows than highs.....

turbo on the other hand has such a larger therapeutic range of hp increase.....kinda like alcoholism...
can go many years managing the issues....before terminal trouble.....might lose a relationship
or two along the way with either......

actually....turbo is like having an awesome wife.....much more forgiving and tolerant....
when asking for more....

nitrous is like marrying Lorena Bobbitt....

[2fast4u2c]

240, that's all I want is 240.  yea, that's it, just 1 more run, that's all I need, just 1 more run. I know I can do it this time, all I need is just 1 more run.  Buwahahahaha!!!  Nitrous, must have more nitrous just give me more nitrous, Haaaaahahahahaha.

[landracing]

nitrous is like marrying Lorena Bobbitt....

that is some funny stuff there...

JonAmo

[KZScott]

I think Guys been dancing with Mr. Brownstone.....I used to do a little but a little wouldnt do it so the little got more and more, I just keep trying to get a little better said a little better than before... 
yeah they werent lying when they told me speed was addictive lol. ok you have me convinced, Ill run good gas on both fuel systems for LSR and pull the same amount of timing as I do for pump gas at the drag strip. I like keeping pistons in one place/piece at a time. I do plan on doing an all out turbo build someday, but I cant afford that now. I have some chassis and electrical work to do/buy and that will use up all my bike funds this winter.
thanks guys

[TRNorBRN6001]

Curious what do you all think would be the best way to go about tuning for N2O for a 1 mile course? I would think monitoring EGT's would be the best method to keep from burning things up. With that said what is a good temp to shoot for with extended N2O use? I have heard different opinions for a safe zone from the low side of 1350-1400 to the higher spectrum of 1500 with 1600 running into the hot zone and bad juju.

Also curious what the simplest and best methodes to manipulate (lower) EGT's? I would think introducing more fuel (richer mixture) would be the primary way and I would guess that to some degree lowering the pressure ("taking out timing") would help as well, but to a lesser degree than either a richer mixture or physically lowering the piston.

I am however concerned (but more than likely wrong) that if I take out too much timing the mixture will still be burning while the gases are leaving the exhaust and the incoming charge may be ignited during overlap. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

I am also curious at what pressure should I be concerned with. I also wonder if there is a formula to calculate that cylinder pressure using base compression and a said amount of O2, similar to the turbo guys calculating by atmospheres/psi?

So many questions so little time!!!!!!

I only want 5mph faster this season, 10mph next, 20mph next, .........., ............, ..........., ........,
............yes, very addictive!!!

Thanks you all,

Gary 

[Cajun Kid]

With my little short stroked "E" motor I would like a bit more pull in high gear only.

I was thinking maybe a 50HP shot plate system under my carb.

What do I need to do ?

My rotating assembly is all forged.  4340 ForgedCrank, Forged H Beam Rods, Forged Pistons
Brodix 18 degree heads with SS Ferrra Valves, Full Roller set up, Shaft Rockers etc..

[joea]

trn....did you see my post about tuning with egts..or a/f...it
can be futile....not saying to ignore it...but its not as simple
as tuning by the numbers........

you can detonate and melt at egt's of 995 F and at 1100 F, and
1300 F.....

its also not as simple as..lower cr to x...retard timing by x amount...

its very application specific...

Dahlgren and practical clinical experience has proven to me that
you can detonate with a rich or lean mixture....and some....

[TRNorBRN6001]

I completely understand, JoeA.............but those are the only tools I have and I have to start somewhere. Just looking for a little base guidance. At this point in time N2O records are within my grasp, so I do not want to give up too soon. Most turbo records are well out of my reach. It ain't easy being a big fella and wanting to go fast. I also have a realy soft spot for my old 2000 ZX-12, even though I know the Busa is the platform of choice. I would like to catch a record with it before I retire the old kawi to street duty. I have ran 3 Texas Mile events and 1 Maxton event with a 70 shot (actual 68HP increase) of N2O lots of Dyno time, and about 3500 street miles with out any problems. I increased the nitrous to 120 shot (actual increase 100HP) took out quite a bit more timing and made it significantly richer, but something did not work and I'm just trying to figure it out.

Mr. Guthrie, I am still in the denial phase.     


Thank you very much again,

Gary

[2fast4u2c]

I increased the nitrous to 120 shot (actual increase 100HP) took out quite a bit more timing and made it significantly richer, but something did not work and I'm just trying to figure it out.

Hmmmmm, me thinks you found your "Burn that sh#t up" zone. Like Joea, myself and others have said, you are now going to have to learn how to tune YOUR program on your own.  It's not that we don't want to help you, it's just that we CAN'T help you because anything we say won't mean diddly squat because your program is your program.  Even if you and I had the exact same setup, same equipment, same everything, you and I would still have issues because of our riding style differences. Even that makes a difference on how our setup needs to be.  When we activate, how long we activate, how's the weather, how old is your fuel, is the moon in alignment with mars?  Nitrous is just so finnicky.  One day your tuneup is great and the next you just blew up cylinders 3&4.  There is no rhyme or reason and even begging will not help.  You my friend have entered the "Burn that sh#t up" zone.  I'm trying to push a 200+hp tuneup and break a certain barrier I have encountered.  I'm trying a completely new system for 2009 in May with the "Hopes" that maybe, just maybe I'll get a run that will propel me further in to the record books.  It took me 2 years before I even came close to Joea's record at Bonneville.  When I did break it, it came at the cost of another blown motor.  I've blown up 5 more in the last 3 years so call me crazy but...I just love the juice.
I will tell you something a very wise racer told me and it's stuck.  GO FAST FAT.  Live to race another day.  Wayne Pollack was that racer and because of him, I've learned to go faster but lethargic.  Each time I push the envelope I burn it up.  I pull 20 degrees out and run an A/F of no higher than 11.5:1
There, now if you use my standards, you'll still burn sh#t up, that's nitrous.  Detonation is the killer, control that and you have the world by the horns.

Guy

[Stainless1]

So, now that you burned it down, you need to do a proper autopsy and figure out what you were really doing.  It will cost you some time and maybe 5-10 lbs of N20.  Duplicate your run, without the motor of course, just the N20 system.  Weigh your bottle accurately, spray at your usual pressure from your normal bottle position.  (If you use medical grade it will be fun) Then do the same thing for the same exact amount of time with the fuel.  If you do it simultaneously it will be the most accurate test you can do. Catch and weigh the fuel, do a little division... 
A/F and EGT can be helpful, but when you push that button, all that does not really matter... know your enrichment ratios.  Then when you fry one up, you can check your baseline tests and see what happened, usually it is a minor thing like fuel pressure changed a PSI or the N20 solenoid froze open and fried you when the gas shut off...    Test... Test.... Test... Know your equipment and its capabilities.

Guy is right, Joe is right, everyone that has chimed in is right, you have to do it yourself and not rely on someone else (kit manufacturer) to do it right for you.  What worked in one situation may not work in another, and turning up the juice will not always give the desired result.    Your situation may require the most power you can get for the shortest time (drag racing) and the motor will live, but hold the button for 5 more seconds and you detonate and burn to the ground.  Eliminate your hot spots, those are the places that detonation looks for, finds and then ruins your day.

Let us know what you find