Author Topic: Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...  (Read 38257 times)

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Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2008, 08:05:16 PM »
Thanks Stainless, yep I'd say I was perty lucky all around. Yeah, I thought you all would like the partialy torched stem. The other valve pic did not come out as well, but it had a similar look. Nitrous pressure was around 900psi. Spray for 58 seconds  :-o  :-o  :-o

Yes, KZ I use the CR10EK plugs. I run full stainless valves. I have heard stock ones on spray can be bad juju. I know three people who have lost stock exhaust valves at the stem and it made the piston and cylinder had look like hamburger meat.


I have a fuel pressure regulator on the nitrous system. I'll bump it a little more.

I realy appreciate it Stainless, thanks KZ and Dean as well.........Plus I like SSS humor.

Gary

Offline Stainless1

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2008, 08:50:11 PM »
Stainless valves will cut just like the one in the picture if your spray turns to torch.  We used Champion G58R and G56R if I remember right, been about 5 years since we ran juice.  They are retracted gap like the picture below.  The problem with overall AF ratio on spray is how little either of the 2 variables, enrichment fuel and N20 need to change to cause catastrophic failure.   If you enrichment pump is fixed pressure at some pressure less than 10 when flowing you might want to look at a different set up for LSR.  
900 is a good liquid number, the bottle will go toward that number as you spray so plan for it.
Good Luck with your projects guys, and welcome to LSR...  8-)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 08:58:38 PM by Stainless1 »
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2008, 09:14:53 PM »
I kind of cleaned the head up a little today. I'll probably send it off in the next couple days to see if they will fix it. I do not know when they replace the seats if they would sink the exhaust seats a little and blend it down or build the oxydized area up and clean it up. Anybody have any experience?











Thanks again you all,

                  Gary

Offline Peter Jack

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2008, 09:27:26 PM »
I've welded up much worse in aftermarket billet drag racing heads for a funny car and cast aluminum heads for a stock car. I don't see where there should be a problem welding and remachining yours.

Pete

Offline Stainless1

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2008, 09:35:02 PM »
When we killed an expensive head with N20 it came back like new, looked like they ground out the ugly porous stuff and rewelded in material, then recut for seats.  We sent ours to Indy Head if I remember, that was 8 years or so ago, lots of racing and parts since then so maybe someone else did it...  :|  Yours looks better than ours did, the ugly one was after it cut the valve, it just kept going till it made its way out of the head, nice plasma cut hole.  Thousands of dollars worth of N20 experience on this site, Joe A, chime in here...
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2008, 09:39:20 PM »
Thank you much, makes me feel a little better.

Sorry, finally remembered to take a picture of the plugs.  :cheers:



Flash on camera lightens them up a little, they are a bit darker.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 09:42:36 PM by TRNorBRN6001 »

Offline KZScott

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2008, 03:36:49 PM »
Not trying to hijack too badly here, but why is having the fuel pressure under 10 psi a bad idea if the AFR is fine?   
oh and Gary, you might have seen on bikeland, I emailed Ryan Schnitz about retracted gap plugs. he suggested using CR10EIX instead. any comments from the LSR guys about those plugs?
thx :)
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot... turbo 8.32 @ 173
00 ZX-12R NA 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB 2013
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 226.5 1.5: 231.6 Loring AFB 2014
Colour Me Gone Racing!

Offline saltsho1

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Re: Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2008, 07:08:10 PM »
Gary, excuse my ignorance on your projects but I don't get on here to much but to read some of the posts.

What engine are those heads off from?   They really look like the 3.4 Taurus SHO heads and if they were three cylinder head they are a great match by looks for the 3.0 SHO motor.  Both were yamaha motors.

Ernie
Car 1147 F/Pro

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2008, 07:12:55 PM »
Not trying to hijack too badly here, but why is having the fuel pressure under 10 psi a bad idea if the AFR is fine?   

At a minimum you need adjustability.  The higher the pressure you use for enrichment fuel the more consistent the spray volume will be.  I would be interested in anyone's recommendation for AF but I would think you would want to be at least as rich as recommended for high HP Turbo.  I would get the motor running right without N20 and then get the correct ratio for the N20 system on the fat side.  

oh and Gary, you might have seen on bikeland, I emailed Ryan Schnitz about retracted gap plugs. he suggested using CR10EIX instead. any comments from the LSR guys about those plugs?
thx :)

Well you saw my recommendation, I'll let someone else chime in.  Any exposed electrode will give you a hot spot if you get a little on the lean side.  Did you tell Ryan you were gonna spray for 20 or more seconds.

Gary, every plug I've seen with the electrode burned off took a valve and often a piston with it.  You were at the lean limit, if you were monitoring AF when this happened, I would like to know what you saw...
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline KZScott

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Re: Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2008, 07:37:56 PM »
Gary and I both have Kawasaki ZX-12Rs. his is a 1375 big bore(2.4mm) /stroker(4.6mm), and mine is a 1287 big bore(3mm)

I told Ryan that I wanted to convert my nitrous drag bike over to LSR, and that someone had recommended retracted gap plugs. I reminded him that stock plugs are CR9EKPA and that I had been using CR10EK. I didnt mention the duration of time I would be spraying as I assumed he would know based on what "LSR" is. I just asked what he would recommend. its quite possible he only has drag racing expirience, but generally he knows more about this sort of thing than I do!

What sort of pump would you reccomend? the upgraded pump most get for my system is the "holley blue pump" which I believe is only 5-7 psi (looking at my fogger jetting chart)

I have neen told to aim for 12.6-12.8:1 AFR on motor and 11.7:1 AFR spraying a 100 hp shot
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot... turbo 8.32 @ 173
00 ZX-12R NA 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB 2013
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 226.5 1.5: 231.6 Loring AFB 2014
Colour Me Gone Racing!

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2008, 08:56:46 PM »
Scott Holley red is a 7, blue is 15 if I remember right.  We used a blue and a regulator for the N20.  Used our red to feed the carbs, now it feeds the EFI pump for the Busa motor. 

Just treat your N20 system like it is a stand alone system, make sure your fuel pump can stay up with the demand.

Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Re: Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2008, 09:55:44 PM »
No datalogger, but its on the wish list along with a few other things.

Its all good info, I like a little hijacking. It helps me a whole lot as well.

Yep, we both run the old ZX-12's, sorry I should have mentioned it in the beginning.

Offline KZScott

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Re: Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2008, 11:22:31 PM »
Hey guys, still on the quest for info about plugs. Some guys on another forum suggested surface gap plugs, which are rather pricey, and im still not sure if they would work. there is no ground electrode sticking out, but the center electrode is kinda sticking out compared to the retracted gap plugs
pic:

now that thats out of the way, and if we just go with what you originally suggested, would we need say a G510R? instead of a G58R or G56R since we currently use CR10EK? the heat range has me a bit confused....
I couldnt find anything besides a G57R however... maybe im looking in the wrong spot...

http://www.sparkplugs.com/results_cross.asp?pid=G57R

about the pump, I used the NOS pump that came with the kit, so i assumed it was able to keep up. i used the jets that were with the kit. i went to the Holley site and their blue pump has a max psi of 14. so im guessing i should get that, and set it the regulator for 12psi, see where im at for AFR, and either fine tune with jets or regulator psi(as long as i dont go under 10) or both right?
 :cheers:
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot... turbo 8.32 @ 173
00 ZX-12R NA 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB 2013
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 226.5 1.5: 231.6 Loring AFB 2014
Colour Me Gone Racing!

Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Re: Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2008, 09:27:33 AM »
Very good info KZ, I think in the old days the heat range for american standard went down (9 would be colder than 10) and I think Japanese stuff went up (10 would be colder than 9). I do not know if they have changed that or I always get things backwards.

Yep, the surface gap plug is perty interesting, don't know if my weak stock spark could jump that gap very well.

I just might be cheap and go with the retracted gap plug.


Offline Stainless1

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Re: Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2008, 10:03:56 AM »
OK guys, we have talked about testing in the past, and how to figure out if you are spraying the correct ratios and how to ensure the fuel supply if correct. 
Read this thread, somewhere in it another thread is referred to, read them both. 

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4761.0.html

Then search the site for N20 or nitrous and read those. 
One of the things you will see is that everyone blows up stuff on N20, your motor is living on the edge every time you push the button, because it takes such a small problem to turn everything into a disaster.  But wait  :-o that is racing  :roll: if was easy everyone could do it.  All you can do is your homework, learn from your mistakes and everyone else's mistakes so you don't have to repeat them. 
Know what mixture you are putting in your motor, that is the first step in understanding N20.
Use the coldest plug that will fire your motor for racing when your aren't on the button.  If you are riding on the street or drag racing and using the button a couple seconds at a time, almost any streetable plug will work, the longer you hold the button, the more dangerous that electrode becomes.   
We killed several motors with kit instructions and parts before we figured out that drag race numbers will live for a 1/4 mile but not through the 2 let alone the 5.  Sure there are a lot of kits out there these days, dry, wet, 20 shot, 100 shot...  :|
If you are going to LSR N20, understand what you are doing, you might be lucky for a while, but it will trip you at the worst time. 
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O