Author Topic: Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...  (Read 38159 times)

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Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2008, 07:52:52 PM »
Yep, the EFIR was developing a low RPM glitch, the C-16 was suspect, fuel solenoid might be getting old,............... Oh well I'll try to go through everything and clean it all out. I can't complain too much It has been a great street bike, lots of dyno time, a few Texas Mile events, couple Maxton showings, and just a wee bit of dragstrip. I'll throw it back together and see if the old 12 has a couple more runs left before full street retirement.


Maxton 210.xxx, that fat boy is trying to get tucked!












Plus one bonus picture, If you guess who the other person is I'll buy you dinner if I see you at an LSR event!


Offline Stainless1

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2008, 10:12:50 PM »
Thanks Stainless, I'll post up pics of the pistons and plugs when I get home. I can not remember exactly on A/F ratio, I'll have to look it up, but I would say somewhere around 10.8:1 -11:1 on spray.

Thanks again,

Gary

Gary, the ratios I referred to were the N20 to enrichment.  N20 should be considered a stand alone system.  You get your motor running correctly without it, put the correct ratio in and usually the motor lives for a while.  Never a guarantee.  It was hard to tell if the exhaust valves were running close or if there was just a little tattooing going on with the N20.   Your stuff just looks like it ran a little lean. I would suspect fuel first.  didn't see the plugs yet but when it gets a little lean, hot spots develop and the N20 injector turns into a torch. 
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline jacksoni

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2008, 10:45:16 PM »
Looks to me like the exhaust valves were hitting the pistons and it was detonating.
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 193.550 2021
  G/FAlt- 193.934 2021 (196.033 best)
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline sabat

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2008, 11:07:44 PM »
That dude in the red hat is of course Doug Meyer.  But seriously, do you know where JC set your piston-to-valve clearance? How do your rod bearings look?

Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2008, 12:51:19 AM »
I think it was 52. I think the tagged valves were after whatever happened. The intake side can be seen a little if you hallucinate. I think the first valve to come apart was the missing one, it cracked the surface of the piston, then maybe forced the others to hit and jump cam timming. The exhaust hit very hard and the intake side lightly.

Another speculation is that the intake charge might have pre-ignited as the exhaust gasses were exiting during overlap. it maybe hard to see, but the only area really burned/oxydized is right inbetween the exhaust seats. 3 of the plugs are toast I'll post that in the morning one still good and had 6% leak down on that cylinder, go figure. I would not have believed it after looking at the valves and piston tops.

I am still very suprised it did not go through a piston, they are only off the shelf JE's.

I will pull the bottom end, should know how the bearings look tommorow and will post pics if you like. At least the crank and rods are not sloppy to the feel.  :-D  :-D  :-D

Offline KZScott

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2008, 06:59:28 PM »
Hey Gary, thanks for the link to the site.
I was running a 4 pill spread on my bike too. 20n 24f i believe my fuel pressure with the NOS pump was 4 psi. never been on a dyno, but Schnitz says that a 60 shot(approx). im trying 24n 28f next yr when i get it back together(80hp)
do you know if we can somehow hook up a timing light to make sure the efir is actually working on our bikes?
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot... turbo 8.32 @ 173
00 ZX-12R NA 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB 2013
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 226.5 1.5: 231.6 Loring AFB 2014
Colour Me Gone Racing!

Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2008, 08:57:49 PM »
I am not sure but it would give a little peace of mind. I am probably doing away with the EFIR and maybe looking to see if powercommanders ignition thing will work with an old USB.

Couple pictures for you all.   :cheers:

My Kinky Cam Chain


Pistons are out


Skirts are not too bad, they are coated.


Better pic of cracked Piston.


Valves are out.


Three Toasty exhaust valves.



Rod Bearings, slightly hammered............but not too shabby!









Guess thats about it, did not want to abuse everyone anymore with picture so I did not post the main bearings. They were all mint. Crank was mint as well. Maybe this post will help some one with a nitrous addiction!  :mrgreen:

Gary








Offline KZScott

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2008, 11:09:25 PM »
lmk what you find out about the power commander. Im thinking that Im going to replace my old pc3r with a usb version so I can hook up a quickshifter in addition to my Schnitz PPI (coil kill). Im hoping that will completely eliminate all pops and bangs when shifting and allow me to use less kill time(which also helps with bangs).
your valves have red on them... is that a special coating? were they all stock?
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot... turbo 8.32 @ 173
00 ZX-12R NA 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB 2013
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 226.5 1.5: 231.6 Loring AFB 2014
Colour Me Gone Racing!

Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2008, 11:29:12 PM »
Yep, a little coat job. Kind of looks like old finger nail polish now. You would probably like an airshifter better for the strip and LSR. Ask around the Dragbikezone though and get everyone elses opinion.

Offline KZScott

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2008, 11:58:54 PM »
I have an airshifter now. it uses the Schnitz kill box (PPI) to kill the coils, and works flawlessly on NA runs, and only had small pops when running the 60 shot. But when I added the second stage (dry kit) it started going kaboom on the shifts. I dont like that, so I want to add injector kill to my coil kill. This would mean the only "loading up on fuel" that would happen would be from the wet nitrous kit instead of fuel from the nitrous kit and the bikes injection system. I asked Ryan Schnitz about using the PPI on the injectors too(splice the wires from the coils to the injectors), but its not possible. He recommended I get the quickshifter and have it activated by the coil kill box as it also controlls the switching valve on my air shifter. I just have to splice into the wire to my switching valve to activate the quickshifter to kill the injectors at the same time as my coils are killed. hopefully I worded that to make some sense.
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot... turbo 8.32 @ 173
00 ZX-12R NA 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB 2013
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 226.5 1.5: 231.6 Loring AFB 2014
Colour Me Gone Racing!

Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2008, 12:09:07 AM »
It does make sense. Did Ryan think it would help? Muzzy sells the digi-Kill, but I think your way is cheaper. I got no love from Muzzy when mine gave up the ghost.   :cry:

KZ you ar da man!  :mrgreen:   Can't wait to see you do a little LSR. You have to bring your dad as well! How far is Maxton from you?  :cheers:

Offline KZScott

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2008, 01:25:55 AM »
Yeah he thought it would help the backfiring. the digikill is a lot more money, and is overkill I believe. I dont need another box on the bike. it has enough and is getting more lol (2 step this xmas) I believe I just need to swap the pc for a newer one and download the correct software. I dont need the little sensor for the shift linkage since it will be activated by the existing kill box. I want to upgrade my old power commander anyway, more features and I had one wknd where it had a corrupt map. lucky I was running NA. looking at the log files after, I was running 13.3:1 AFR with 5 degrees advanced ignition on 87 octane at just higher than stock compression ratio.  :-o good thing JE builds tough stuff lol
Maxton is a 22 hr drive, roughly 1300 miles according to mapquest, so you can see my excitement over the new track in Maine! I would love to get to Maxton, but competing in an event in Maine is a much more realistic goal for the upcoming yr. The old man will definately be coming too. I think he might disown me if I tried to go without him, and theres no person I would rather bring anyway. I want him to get into it too, but he doesnt want to go over 150, so is content with 1/4 mile. maybe we could talk him into it after we get him to an event. He would fit into an XL TFA shirt  :-D and it wouldnt be tough to switch his bike around to be ready.
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot... turbo 8.32 @ 173
00 ZX-12R NA 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB 2013
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 226.5 1.5: 231.6 Loring AFB 2014
Colour Me Gone Racing!

Offline TRNorBRN6001

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2008, 08:31:19 AM »
Too cool!  :-D  :-D

Offline Stainless1

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2008, 09:59:39 AM »




Gary, this is the typical cut you see when the N20 spray is ignited by a hot spot in your chamber.  My guess is the plug electrode was glowing and turned your spray into a cutting torch.  See the nice cut pattern on the head and stem....  Your ex valves looked like they have been running close a while, you are lucky that the #3 didn't beat the cylinder, head and piston to death, it probably cut like the #4 and hit the piston just right and went out the open hole. 
Turn up the fuel pressure, on the jets you were using I'll bet you were on the lean side for extended spray time.  You didn't mention your N20 pressures so it is hard to know if your plan is high pressure (gaseous) or low pressure (liquid).   But generally if you spray a long time, the bottle gets cold and you spray liquid, (read more weight, leaner mixture) always good to plan for that.  If you are using regular plugs, change to retracted gap when you are spraying for a long time they eliminate the potential hot spot.
Scott, turn up your fuel pressure also, most of the suggested numbers for the kits are for drag racing, they are too lean for LSR, your motor might live on the edge for 10 seconds, but not for 20...  :|  My longest spray time was 58 seconds, 9+ lbs. of N20.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 10:02:03 AM by Stainless1 »
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline KZScott

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Fun with Nitrous, how to torch cut a valve under load...
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2008, 04:51:49 PM »
So what type of plugs should we run in our bikes? (You run cr10ek like me right Gary?) stock is cr9ekpa
I log my passes and I was running as rich as Gary when using nitrous, so I dont think its an issue. my fuel pressure is non adjustable anyway. its the NOS low pressure pump. 15760
I wonder if we should be looking into stainless ex valves...
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot... turbo 8.32 @ 173
00 ZX-12R NA 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB 2013
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 226.5 1.5: 231.6 Loring AFB 2014
Colour Me Gone Racing!