New guy seeks help.

[RICK]

Hello,
 My name is Rick and I'm new here.
  I'm seriously wanting to build a 200 mph car as cheap and simple as can be.......... If that sounds all to familiar, I read a post from 'JIM' member#105 about a month ago and I could'nt have said it better myself. We have all the same questions. The day before that I talked to 'WES' and he suggested- 'GO on line and introduce yourself, they're good people, they'll help you' so here it goes.
   My name is Rick, I live in Elsberry Mo. I've been wanting to drive the salt flats since I've been out of diapers. Now I'm trying to get there before I have to get back in them.    My goal sounds simple, Go to the salt flats, go 200, get a red hat,be happy. Because I'm new I just don't know any better. No need to be gentle, I can take the harsh sting of reality.
  But first, more about me. I've been racing,[nhra] super gas,9.90@140 and super comp 8.90@165, just never on salt.'JIMS' replys were mostly $$, but being a racer/hot rodder, I've all ready got most the stuff. I'm just not sure what configuration to put it in. I have big motors, 48 ft car haulin trailer, suit, bucket with name, DOB,and blood type painted on it. I've got the 34 5-win that I've had since I was 17. I'd like to somehow put it all together and end up with that RED HAT! Back in Jan. when my biz was slow, I started puttin parts aside, but when asked 'what class?' 'what motor?' etc? I haven't got a clue. Some of my answers may come with the rule book?[its only been 5 months]
  But 'JIMS" question was 'is there a spec. sheet of success published out there somewhere? Or can I just bug you guys every time I have a question?
  Why are there so many cars with auto trans?
 And then, why a 350 turbo?
 What type rear? Open? Posi? Spool?
  Right now, I've got a pile a tube in th e floor, my bender is oiled, my notcher is sharp, the welder has fresh tungston, I'm all fired up, worried about running out of time, just not sure what direction to take? So help,,,,,,,,,, please.
 
           thanks,Rick
 
 
 ps JIM, if your still out there, contact me, I think we have a lot of the same demons.

[landracing]

Rick,
 
 Now thats the spirit, love the energy. Start tickeling the ideas. How fast can you afford to go? Although i'm a 100% bike guy, And I dont have all answers to your questions.
 I think the automatics have been more successfull on the salt so many stay with them. But there have been many that used 5 and 6 speed tranny too.
 What to build, what do you want to build.
 I would think something that has more aero of course would be better, so your vintage oval track car would be out. Streamliner to expensive so I guess that would be out. Lakester I know of two for salt one for $40K and another $100K. Both proven and top notch. I think the $40K treit lakester is a steal for the money invested in it. Top notch work, only the best.
 If you are looking for a red hat, I would start searching the records and the 200 minimums for a class that is obtainable and build from there.
 If you want to go have fun, just build anything. Some start with something simple to get feet wet and get a powerplant and known good combanations to work then evolve into something more advanced.
 
 Just think about it, if you are set on building something already, look around in the picture post for a vehicle that would be in same class or similar and find what speeds they are turning that will give you some type of clue of what you will have to do.
 
 Keep me posted, post a picture of something close to what you want to build and I can help with speeds they have run.
 
 Jonathan

[SaltRat]

Oh, dang!  The woods are full of 'em.  (ok, us.)
 
 Just hangin' out at the World of Speed was incredibly addictive.  Great folks, great noises, incredibly beautiful place.
 
 If the yellow car can pass tech, I want to try for the 150 club.  If not, the 130 club.  Then maybe a dedicated car.
 
 I'm from a road racing/autocross background.  Never done any drag racing, but this salt stuff/texas mile/lsr sure has me facinated.
 
 Any thought, any tips, any warnings are apprectiatd.
 
 Still learning,
 
 SaltRat

[jimmy six]

Rick Good Luck in your endever. Since you read "Jims" messages carefully you will see that it may take back to back runs of over 350 to get in the 2-club. As said above look in the new book for records near or just over 200 and see what type of cars are available for that record. a 34 ford racing against a 99 camaro in the same class is definately  a disadvantage so you need to look at all of it. Another place to look in at the 200 mile per hour club website to see what some of their minimums are. IE: a record may exsist at 210 but the 2-club minimum to get in the club maybe 240. You may think some of this is unfair but your looking at a 55 year tradition here. As in all other forms of racing it's just not horse power but getting it to the ground. No one can tell you what to do. Some of your drag racing experience is helpful but what you did in 10 secs is now a minute with your foot in it with very little traction. Hope you find a way and do it. J.D.

[RICK]

Its probally because I'm such a lousy typer and speller that I did'nt go into much detail. And maybe I should not have used RED HAT as a metaphor.Don't misunderstand, I have only the highest respect for you guys that are the pioneers of land speed racing, and the 55 year tradition is one to be honored.
   My deal is this; I've been putting hot rods together for other people most of my life- my kids are married, grown, thru college,etc., Igot them raised- I'm not going to live long enough to build all the cars I've got in my head- so I need to prioratize the ones I can complete, the ones that are really important to me.
 I have a 34 5 window coupe that I've been driving for over 30 years. 200mph is only a personal record, or goal. And it might sound silly to some, but I'd like to put the 34 and 200 together. I would never be so bold to think I could just show up my first time and end up in the books.
 Maybe I should ask more of a poll?
  If you had a 34 5/win. and wanted to go 200, what trans. would you run?
 What rear?
 What ratio?
 What tire?
 Choptop?
 Extend wheel base?
 How much caster?
 Is there a published spec. sheet?
 Lots of questions and little time, just looking for a little helpfull advice..thanks Rick

[landracing]

Rick
 
 What Rear, Tire, and ratio depends on what hp you have in the car. If you have a 1:1 will you have the power to pull it into the power band of the motor. Need to do some calculations, and find out the best mph. On the bike im geared for 230 mph, but only doing 165 mph. Ok I have plenty of gear now I just have to add some hp to pull the gear.
 
 Choptop, I would say yes. Less frontal area and better aero over the car. Look at tom bryants Comp Coupe, chopped.
 
 Extended wheelbase, yes. MOST of the time the longer the better, more stable, more room for stuff.
 
 Caster?? Good question.
 
 Pulished spec sheet, have seem some of them for streamliners like Al Teague, Nolan White, Summer Brothers, but other then that no.
 
 Sorry I couldnt be more help.
 
 Jonathan

[RichFox]

Rick--Some years ago I had a '32 coup with a GMC in it. It went 158. The same engine in my Vega went 177. Must mean something. A 460 Ford with a PAW master race kit ($1100) and a 4bbl with a 125hp NoX went 197 in the same car. It went 208 with an injected 455 Pontiac. If you just want to go 200 get a little car and a big motor. Save the 34 for the street. If you want a record and hat that's another story.    RF

[Kitch]

Rick -
 
 Let me give you my two cents' (probably a lot more than that, now that I add it up) worth . . .
 
 I think my situation a few years ago was somewhat similar to yours.  I've owned a 29 roadster for over 40 years.  It was an old drag and early Bonneville car in the 50's.  I converted it to street use for over 35 years and then wanted to take it back to the salt.
 
 I was lucky in a couple of ways that you may be lacking, though.  I'd been going to Bonneville and El Mirage for 30 years.  I was more familiar with the classes and cars and had also been a crew member for a number of years.  And I had a roadster.  If you check the Rule Book (if you ever get one), you'll see that the vintage roadsters run in classes by themselves.  But a 34 Coupe runs with the 04 coupes in some coupe and sedan classes.  This is why it's a more difficult task to get in the 200 Club with a 34 Coupe.  But I'm with you.  It was more important (at the time) to go 200 with my own old car than get in the Club.
 
 Now let's talk about equipment.  Sounds like you got a good start.  34 coupe + big motor.  And I'm sure you've figured out that the motor has to live a lot longer that 9 or 10 seconds and can find out how to do that.
 
 After that, what to run is purely personal preference.  A lot of it is like aguing Democrat or Republican -- or Ford vs. Chevy.  Here's what I think, which is certainly not definitive . . .
 
 I use a 4-speed with close 3rd and 4th ratios.  Getting up to 150 or so is not the big sweat.  But when you shift just past the power peak to 4th, you don't want to fall on your face.  I don't know the 350 Turbo ratios, but I suspect that they are not as close as the ones I use.  Plus, it you have to push start it's surely easier.  And there's not a lot of horsepower loss in 4th (direct) gear.  (But maybe a lock-up converter offers the same -- I just don't know.)
 
 As to open, posi and spools -- same Ford vs. Chevy arguments.  I personally use an open 9" with 28-spline axles.  They may use 15% or some other figure more power than a 12-bolt (or whatever), but that's 15% of what it takes to turn it, not 15% of your power.   It's kinda like the old magneto thing about how much power they use (not the Top Fueler types).   I believe they use a 1 H.P. electric motor at Don Zig's to test my magnetos -- and they turn it right on up.  Back to the 28-spline axles.  I think you'll break traction long before breaking the rear end with what you're wanting to build.
 
 As to axle ratio -- start with the available tires you can buy and back into the ratio you need to go 200 at the RPM you think your big motor peaks at.  And you can do it all on a $2 Dream Wheel.  We're within one or two miles an hour of our estimates with the 20-year old piece of cardboard.
 
 Chop the top?  Sure if you want to.  Less car to put through the hole.
 
 Extend the wheelbase?  Take a look at the class you want before you make that decision.
 
 Published spec sheet?  I'd guess that the NASCAR rule book is a lot bigger than the SCTA's.  And they only cover 3 or 4 cars.  The beauty SCTA is that you can build and race what you want.  I should caution you that whatever you build has to meet the safety requirements dictated by the class and the speed of the class records that would apply to your vehicle.  You can't build a AA/Comp Coupe and then say the rules don't apply to you as you're only going to go 150.
 
 You may want to start with something more substantial than tubing for a chassis.  On the salt, saving weight is not that critical.  In fact on many vintage cars there's a lot of weight bolted on later.  Our frame rails are boxed 1/4'' steel tapering to about 5x12 inches in the rear.  How much does it weigh?  Beats me!
 
 Being it's already May -- probably your best bet is to join us all in August before you go too far down a path you may need to retrace.  See you then!

[RICK]

Two cents? My oak desk,$850, this computer,$1500, my internet service,$20, the knowlege I'm getting on LSR,,,,,,,,,,Priceless!
  I've been digging thru the parts I have. A 6-speed, t-56 from late camaro, but I'm afraid that 5 and 6 may be too far apart. A site 'keisler auto eng.' has a cute little chart that puts it at somthing like 357mph@ 6500rpm with a 3.73 axle?? Sounds kinda crazy or too
 good to be true.
  Rear end, I just found that I have aquired a pile of GM 10bolt 8 1/2 stuff. Mostly from taking them out and putting in the 12 bolts and 9in.  in customers rides, they leave the old stuff for me to discard. So with a 30 spline axle, I think your right, traction will break before it does, still,,,,,,,posi? spool? open? Why?   Does one have an advantage over the other?
  Top chop? Wheel base? I guess I really need that rule book.
 Frame? Idon't think Iunderstand. 1/4" steel--5x12? Thinking I need to examine one of these things.
  In drag racing, with out the paint, all the super comp cars look so much alike. I think I'm gonna like the open options of building something diffrent.
 Next week is JUNE!---I'd love to join you in August,but when you work for yourself you only have to work 1/2 a day. The hard part is figureing which 12 hour period thats going to be. Sometimes its more like babysitting.
 
 Plan is to partisapate in Sept. Gives me more
 time to finish a car.
  And I've been led down the garden path before,,,,,,That why I was asking for your help.
 So don't be shy, log on and feel free to tell me if I"m about to screew up, and what combonation you use
 
 thanks for great info so far.Rick

[SaltRat]

Hi guys,
 
 Guess I'll learn some more stuff before this is over . . .
 
 My plan is to run 150 or 130 club this september and see what happens - then make plans.
 
 by the way,  http://www.csgnetwork.com/automotiveconverters.html   looks like it might have some "cheaters" we can use.  
 
 There is also a good excel spread sheet at
  http://www.panteraplace.com/page32.htm   that can be downloaded.
 
 From what I understand, a 1:1 trans gear is most efficient (5 and 6 speeds are nice but doesn't one want to use the hp to go fast instead of overcoming internal friction?) - just thinking out loud here. (if your motor will pull the gears, nevermind.)
 
 I guess the guys w/ the records know the answers . . . . .
 
  <small>[ May 28, 2004, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: SaltRat ]</small>

[jimmy six]

Rick, Kitch gave you the straight dope. His frame, I think, is 1/4" thick rectangular tubing. A friend of mine built a gas/fuel roadster using 5/16' thick 2"x6" retangular tubing for frame rails.. The 10" rears have been strong enough for a lot of cars I've inspected. Most use Fords so they can change gears. I use a 57-63 Pontiac. lots of stock good gears but harder to get now. All kinds of Quick changes are used too. The trans you mentioned may not be strong enough in the overdrive area. You will need to make sure what torque it will handle. I use a Tex Racing Nascar trans with overdrive.  Many are using Jerico's, Liberity's, B &J's and Lenco's with big power. I snapped a BW T-10 with 750 ft#'s of torque. Each item must be looked at thoroughly. Also your fire suit. -15 W/O blower and a -20 W/ blower. This is not to discourage you, just the way it is. Good luck. Hope to see you there.

[DallasV]

Rick, I have a couple cents to throw in. I don't know how set you are in running this year, but if it were me I would shoot for next year and this is why. I would go out to speedweek this year with a camera and a notebook and take a bunch of pictures of cars similar to the project I was building take a bunch of notes and ask a million questions and trust me you'll get close to a million answers. Then head home compile all your data and build the car that best suits you. Some of the people I would talk to would be Bryants, George Fields, Kugles, and Burklands (anyone that can make a datsun B-210 run 300 will have some good ideas). At least you'll have a bunch of proven ideas to work with. Hope all goes well for you and like they say life begins at 200 MPH.

[jimmy six]

Great reply Dallas. Rick, Dallas is right and the best thing is all of the guys and anyone for that matter will talk to you and help. LSR racers are the most open friendly racers I've ever found. (except when things are going wrong). The best time to be there is Friday before it starts and watch the cars being inspected. Things will be hectic with 2-300 cars and bikes but that's one of the times to look at stuff, get ideas, and jot done the # of the vehicles you like and go see them in the pits. I'll mail you a vehicle check off sheet if you want so you can follow what's being done of get one there. I suggusted a few years ago that all pre-entrants get a copy to help check off their own cars before going this year and to my amaisement one was in my packet for entering this year. Bring a camera too. We can help you here but none of us can guarentee what you are doing will meet the rules. Good luck. J.D.

[RICK]

I was asking for that harsh sting of reallity, was'nt I? The past couple of days has been a little bit of an eye opener for me. And if I had a rule book it would probally answer most of my questions.[waiting since Jan.] J.D.--- I checked my suit and its  only 3.2/A5. It was getting a little snug anyway. Had I a rule book???
  But I' not discouraged. August is always bissy for me, and can't usually get away for an hour, but I started moving my schedule around already, hoping to free up a couple of days?
  SALTRAT mentioned a 130/150 club? Maybe I need to find out more about that?
  Tomorrow I have to go to the Street Rod Nationals in Springfield MO[my wife thinks its a work thing] hoping to dig up some Salt Veterns there. Take some pictures and pick some gray matter.
  So don't give up on me, You have'nt given me any bad news, knowlege is good. It's good to be safe. Thats how I've cheated  death so far.
  thanks,,,Rick
 
 ps We had one hell of a hail storm here yesterday. looks like it could total my 03 pickup, broke out the windshield,etc..........our trusty 1937 chev shop truck, parked a 100 yards away, not a dimple on it.Better built? or act of God?

[SaltRat]

Rick,
 
 http://www.saltflats.com/I30%20Club.html  is a link to the 130 rules.
 
 At least you could run - and I think you can run most any street car - or your unicycle, kart, or what? lawnmower?  Tow truck?
 
 If you have the fever, no matter what your schedule end up, get out and try it.
 
 From my experience, the folks are great - good luck w/ your project!
 
 http://public.fotki.com/The_Pope/bonneville/
 
 (not all pics are mine)
 
 SaltRat