Buddfab vs. Nebulous 4:

[nebulous]

Mr utahfab
Would a square chopstick "kite" the same as a shingle? A round balloon would be good! But drivers are hard to find!
The unlimited design of a streamliner (a vehicle unique to itself) is a combination of ideas I;E Safety, strength, accuaracy, balance, vision, steering geometry, aspect ratio, aero dynamics, philosophy, testing,improved evolutionary design, and more! A little more than "Kiting" "blowover" and scientific beliefs. Could anyone build a streamliner and guarantee that it would get records, or never crash? Keep reading aerodynamic books without interpretation, and all streamliners would have front engine/frontwheel drive, long tubular bodies transposing into a long flat tail. The only difference being the drivers suit color! Oh and decals!
5050 should have had the chance to have been proven good or bad by results, not assumed facts and self serving rule changes. There are no guarentees not even by "experts"
A gardener with a leaf blower has more hands on usable aerodynamic info than a PHD!
We have watched identical nascars twirl, float, tumble. kite, blowover, and disintergrate! Right? Yet no spoilers on roadsters!
I really risk having to eat my words! But! I am a free man as are my partners!
Thanks for the concern Jack

[blackslax]

I have been working out the design of a streamliner for some time now.  I seriously cadded out Jack's design among others.  After many nights of sitting on the couch and gently waving my hands as though I an doing qi-gong (a sure sign to my kids not to bug me because I am working out some mechanical system), I concluded that flat bottoms are a recipe for a catastrophe.  

The simple reason, stick your hand out the window of your car at 60mph.  The force exerted on that .2 ft² is significant, and that is not at 200+. Now take the whole bottom of that bike when it decides to no longer "go under the air".  Once that front lifts enough to overcome the minimal downforce, that bike will look like a home sick angel.  

[Peter Jack]

While I subscribe to the "blowover theory" myself I at the same time think there may be ways to prevent same using mechanical or aerodynamic aids. If we choose to outlaw any individual shape we then have to start setting arbitrary limits and how are we to arrive at those limits and who's to judge where the line is for what's good and what's bad. The only bad crash one of Jack's designs has been involved in was apparently due to tire issues and there have been many crashes involving many types of vehicles caused by the same types of issues. Rather than outlaw innovation whether it be aerodynamics, track width, or any other thing that might evolve from a fertile mind shouldn't we be encouraging the innovation and if it's felt that there may be an issue allow the speed to be gained slowly and the theory to be tested thoroughly on the way to progress. Stunting progress is not the way to move lsr forward. Killing ideas by bringing in things like the 20 degree rule is just eliminating competition by rule so that original thinking is discouraged and I think that diminishes the overall concept of lsr.

END OF RANT

Pete

[PorkPie]

This thread (+ the similar aero....thread) is unfortunately going very ugly.................

Why?

- some comments are only showing jealousy against any kind of innovation....if a brain can't create innovations.....this brain starts to blame the innovation....

- some comments are written in a way, that I'm getting the feeling that the writer has absolute no clue about aerodynamic (and about Jack's creations)....especially using Cliff's accident as example (and may be not knowing the cause?)......this is bad manners.....if the cause was known....than shame on the writer.......

- some comments from a "I'm the only expert in aerodynamic"......sorry......if you ask ten REAL experts in aerodynamic....you get ten different solution....aerodynamic is a pack of a lot of parameters and functions.....all this gives a solution of a shape which works or not......

Please go back to a fair discussion......

and Jack, don't let you bother from some ignorant.....who can't read airflow or can't see behind the idea of your creations....

[blackslax]

I would have to agree that innovation is the fuel that keeps society moving forward.  The problem is that the sport is controlled by a governing body that must weigh all options of safety, fairness, innovation, and sportmanship. Unfortunately this equation also includes the very reason that people choose LSR over more regulated sports.  MONEY. Or lack of money to pursue big dollar racing. Can the SCTA afford, as a governing body, to sponsor events that have ever increasing levels of risk (as perceived by an insurance company) and still provide an experience that is both fun , safe, and profitable? 

And that my friends is the rub....

[blackslax]

To further my last post, I see the problem being that many of the present streamliners are exceeding the limits technical understanding and are becoming a gray area as far as balancing (as BLUE pointed out) the mechanical stability vs. the aero stability vs. a myriad of other factors.  Unfortunately the complexity of the factors and how these balance in differing salt, air, wind, driver conditions is beyond the comfort zone of rocket scientists, let alone the volunteer that is tech. inspecting your bike. 

[Stainless1]

I think outlawing innovation is a problem for our sport.  Will flat bottom cars be next?  Who will determine how flat is too flat.  We have run a rectangle for quite a few years....
Roadsters spin and crash all the time... maybe they will be next... Going 200+ in a car designed for 50 is dangerous... do we outlaw every design that has ever crashed and those that are somewhat similar because they may crash... Roadster guys... be careful you could be next.

Is our sport dangerous...
yes, going fast is dangerous. 

If you build a vehicle, pay attention to safety, do what you can to make it as survivable as possible, then you have done your job as best you can.  Will your ideas work?  I think that is why we race.  We spend our time and money to see if our ideas work.

I hope we do not stifle our innovators... if all our racecars are required to look alike, we could be the next nascrap.

[desotoman]

Roadster guys... be careful you could be next.

No offense, I thought this was a streamliner thread. How did we get Roadsters involved in this discussion? 

Tom G.

[Utahfab]

 To anyone that might take have taken offense to something I said here, please note the part where I said “Just some thoughts, take them for what their worth, feedback is welcome.”

I was a little confused by Jack’s post as I was defending the aero on his creations.  Rather than possibly perpetuate something I might have mis-stated I gave him a call.  I let him know I was actually defending his aero and his package in general, I just didn’t agree with a flat bottomed motorcycle streamliner.  You might be surprised but he didn’t get mad  and the conversation continued.  Jack can correct me if I state this wrong as I’m greatly simplifying.  Jack has a set of ideas he uses to design his streamliners.  One of the results is his flat bottom.  I’ve got ideas that I hope will someday come together in a streamliner.  From the ideas currently in my head (I reserve the right to change my mind!) it won’t have a flat bottom.  Jack doesn’t take that as an insult.  In fact I think he relishes the challenge.

Jack thinks outside the box.  Hopefully you can tell I have a fair bit of respect for him, his idea and his results.  Sometimes I think over past the other side of the box and disagree on a point or two but that’s OK.  I can still respect him and what he’s accomplished.  We can still have a conversation, maybe even a fairly enthusiastic one.  It’s healthy to challenge assumptions, we might learn something!

If I say something you don’t agree with tell me so and tell me why.  I’ll either defend my thought or learn something and change my mind but I can pretty much guarantee I won’t attack or attempt to degrade you.  To those that do, Take a chill pill 

Thanks
Billy

[Stainless1]

Tom, roadsters have the same aero instability that flat bottom streamliners have... maybe... depends on which areo "expert" you talk to.

The point I was making to everyone is don't jump on the "ban this design" bandwagon... you never know where it will eventually take you

See ya on the salt 

[sabat]

Hooray! Rational debate.

I have nothing to add (and nothing at stake) in this discussion, other than to state that I truly appreciate the opportunity for learning in this and other threads.

 

[gearheadeh]

To anyone that might take have taken offense to something I said here, please note the part where I said “Just some thoughts, take them for what their worth, feedback is welcome.”

 I just didn’t agree with a flat bottomed motorcycle streamliner.      Jack has a set of ideas he uses to design his streamliners.  One of the results is his flat bottom.  I’ve got ideas that I hope will someday come together in a streamliner.  From the ideas currently in my head (I reserve the right to change my mind!) it won’t have a flat bottom.  Jack doesn’t take that as an insult.  In fact I think he relishes the challenge.

Jack thinks outside the box.  Hopefully you can tell I have a fair bit of respect for him, his idea and his results.  Sometimes I think over past the other side of the box and disagree on a point or two but that’s OK.  I can still respect him and what he’s accomplished.  We can still have a conversation, maybe even a fairly enthusiastic one.  It’s healthy to challenge assumptions, we might learn something!

If I say something you don’t agree with tell me so and tell me why.  I’ll either defend my thought or learn something and change my mind but I can pretty much guarantee I won’t attack or attempt to degrade you.  To those that do, Take a chill pill 

Thanks
Billy

Since I hunt and pluck type Iam lazy and wait till someone else says exactly what I have to say and then quote them, Sorry for my lazyness but my index fingers demand brevity!!

[Dean Los Angeles]

The flat bottom blow over concern is ridiculous. Did you ever see a video of a boat blow over? Of course you have. They still race them.

Nascar, F1, Indy, everything sails. First you have to have a cause. After that it's a moot point.

The flat bottom design of Jack's or Ron Main are valid concepts well within the rules. And very competitive. Designs like this are the pinnacle of the sport and why a lot of us participate.

Roadsters! Raise your hand if you've seen 10 or more roadsters spin. We oughta outlaw the bunch. 

I thought we should outlaw Tom, but he hasn't had a flat bottom in a lotta years!

[desotoman]

I thought we should outlaw Tom, but he hasn't had a flat bottom in a lotta years!

Huh    LOL. Sorry Dean, that went over my head. LOL.

Tom G.

[desotoman]

Tom, roadsters have the same aero instability that flat bottom streamliners have... maybe... depends on which areo "expert" you talk to.

The point I was making to everyone is don't jump on the "ban this design" bandwagon... you never know where it will eventually take you

See ya on the salt 

Stainless,

Thanks for the clarification.

Tom G.